 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: BGBG
Date: 2018-07-25 19:19
Clarinet is 4 years old. Never oiled keys. How often should keys be oiled if play on an average of 1/2-1 hour per day?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-07-25 20:25
Bill Brannen used to make the point many years ago that metal on metal contact is just inherenlty self destructive. He would recommend putting a drop of oil along each rod or on each pivot once every month or so. And he was quick to point out that you should probably be just as mindful of your ligature's screws as well.
A sure sign posts or rods are binding would be when they start backing out of the posts.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2018-07-25 22:09
I've never done this, figuring if there were no "sticking" keys then they didn't need oil. I played my Buffets probably a total of 15 years averaging an hour a day each (actually I switch practicing the A and Bb every other day, a couple-few hours.) Many hours, no oil.
Now I've got a problem on the Bb. The external thumbhole ring sometimes binds on the extended metal thumbhole. It's doing this because the molded- on tube now has play between the two posts it mounts between. The threaded rod is tight between the posts; either the ends of the tube have worn or the inside of the posts have. If the tube moves along the gap to the upper post, the thumbhole ring can catch in the depressed position so the mechanism spring can't let the little hole opposite open. It doesn't always happen, but when it does it causes wrong notes.
I found a tiny washer at a local hardware store that's ok on i.d. and o.d., but it's too thick for the offending gap along the rod (24-cents for a tiny bit of metal that will disappear forever if you happen to drop it.) I'll try some substitute, maybe plastic. And, I'm going to oil the keys on both instruments.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-07-25 22:47
If I understand the issue properly, that can be solved easily with swedging (stretching the tube to fit the space between the post).
........Paul Aviles.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2018-07-25 22:49
Key oil sold in music stores kind of is horrible. It is way too thin, like water. But it's better than not using anything. The metal to metal wears out so it should be done about once a month.
As I said many times I got to study with the amazing Hans Moennig in Philadelphia and he liked heavier oil.
I'm using synthetic Lucas engine 40 weight oil. A quart will last you a lifetime available at auto stores. With this you don't have to oil the keys every month. Maybe every 4 to 6 months. In 10 years there is still no play is the keys. Why synthetic? It doesn't gum up and get sticky.
As for the pivot screws I use a marine grease. Why Marine? Well I find that conventional grease such as for bearings can gum up. But Marine grease is made for saltwater climates and won't gum up and there won't be any play in the keys after many years of use.
When I repair some horns there is often a lot of play in the keys and the rods actually have high spots on them from no oil so you cane to smooth everything down with maybe a fine file or 2000 grit sandpaper to get the keys from sticking and spinning freely once again.
Some of the new Buffet horns are already not fitting correctly, requiring the keys to be fixed for smooth action. Horrible.
Bottonline - Oiling your horn is the same as changing oil in your car every 3 to 6 months. If you do this you car, clarinet will last 20 years or more, without any major problems.
If you don't want to get your hands dirty take your horns to a local repairman and give him/her this type of oil and grease. The cost should be about $25 at the most. It's a 20 minute job. Have it done every 3 to 6 months depending on how much you play. I often rack up a lot of hours during tours and concert time, 4 to 6 hours a day so 3 months is the magic number for me.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: shmuelyosef
Date: 2018-07-25 23:46
QUOTE "Bob Bernardo"
Quote:
"...the rods actually have high spots on them from no oil..."
I am of the (informed) opinion that you have to pull the rod out to oil/grease it.
Drops of oil only work on pivot screws; even with pivot screws if the hinge is snug between the posts, a heavy oil will not necessarily penetrate well.
With the rods, I use "Magnalube-G PTFE Grease". Can be purchased at most mainstream hardware stores, or at Amazon
For the pivot screws, I use Alisyn Heavy-Duty Key Oil, which I get from MusicMedic
These are both much cleaner and longer-lasting than petroleum-based products.
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2018-07-26 00:04
One of advantages of pulling the rods out when oiling is to remove the old oil. It is usually filled with small pieces of grit which can act as an abrasive on your keys and rods. You get rid of the old oil for the same reason you change the oil in your car.
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
Hand crafted clarinet mouthpieces and Buffet clarinets
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-07-26 00:35
Sorry, I assumed everyone would know to actually take apart mechanism first before applying oil! I had seen some manufacturer recently provide "oiling holes" along the key shafts. That was silly.
...........Paul Aviles
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Author: BGBG
Date: 2018-07-26 00:48
This is helpful. I was suddenly wondering if after some time routine maintenance should be done even if no issues, like changing oil in your car. I think I will at least get some sort of oil and do some simple periodic mainenance. If it mst be named "key oil" and come from a music store I suppose I will do that.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-07-26 02:28
Ok, don't hate the next new thing that requires specificity but......
The best lubricant out there is Hetman Heavy Key Oil available at Sam Ash.com for seven bucks. Most of the stuff at stores is way too thin to be affective in providing smooth key action. The heavier weight oil was also an important element to Bill Brannen's overhauls (used in combination with light spring tensions on the rings......magical!).
............Paul Aviies
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Author: BGBG
Date: 2018-07-26 06:36
I have a small cylinder of clock oil with a tip but I guess that would too light compared to the heavier oil people are mentioning. But I thought maybe I should begin oiling although I know almost nothing about the mechanical side of clarinets and parts.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2018-07-26 06:48
shmuelyosef - Everyone has their favorite oils. I think if you keep your horns lubricated with thicker oils you will be fine.
Walter, I totally agree with you. Clean the rods. But if you aren't at that level of taking apart a horn well take it to a repairman with your favorite oils.
Also use those tight rubber gloves. They have 3 purposes. 1 is your hands remain clean and 2, some of the oils can be toxic. 3, it's easy to handle the keys, screws, and rods.
For those that disagree use stinky key oil that has the thickness of water.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: alanporter
Date: 2018-07-26 21:51
Haynes Clarinet Manual recommends SX 75W90 synthetic gear oil as used in the automotive industry. It works for me.
tiaroa@shaw.ca
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2018-07-27 08:38
The thing about "thicker" oil, etc. is... how thick is it? Thicker than what? For example, for keys mounted on rod screws, with excellent fit, oil can be too thick and actually make you feel the friction. Grease will show it better. For pivot screws it's not a problem, actually can be an advantage, because the contact area is tiny in comparison.
I use oils from a company that makes pro motor and gear oils and also musical instrument oils. They have four types of viscosity for instrument oil, and like pretty much any other brand, it's not specified (though they told me when I asked). I also use their machine/gear oils and they are available in many more levels of viscosity and sold with written specs.
Re disassembling to oil, that is best, but how important is it really? In reality not every person has the time to leave their clarinet to completely disassemble and oil, so "topping up" is done. Some instruments (depending on materials, player, area) would tend to rust more or have more dirt get into the hinges.
From the many instruments I see, I would say that statistically, I don't see a big (or any significant) difference between instruments that have a regular "top up" vs. ones that more often have their keys removed, cleaned and oiled. Difference as in wear on the parts.
With the oils I use, I have enough experience with that company that I trust them that the musical instruments oils are better for that than their gear oils (they even make oils for race cars). They are definitely different in some ways at least because they are transparent, while the gear oils have a yellow tint.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2018-07-27 09:41
Gear oil is fine in my opinion. 80 weight. But we have to be careful as repairmen. Here's why. The oil might cause some of the keys to be sluggish so we have to add spring tension or actually use a heavier spring. Surely not all of the keys will need adjustments. Remember what I said above about Buffet having high spots on the rods to the point that the keys won't move at all. This is on NEW horns. Garbage, they don't care. It's horrible. So repairmen have to fix this first of course. Then the heavy oils will work well. To save time I often you a lathe to get a nice even thickness and measure it with calipers or a micrometer. Most cases I use a micrometer. New horns! What a waste. Also the keys are often dry of oil. So much for Quality Control. I don't blame repairmen charging $500 to $1000 to get the new Buffets working right. Undercutting holes, replacing pads, because the horn don't hold a seal. It's just wrong. So here is the problem. Heavy gear oil will freeze these problematic keys, so take the rod off and smooth off these high points. The clarient should work much better.
But for sure your keys won't wear out. It can get gummy. So go synthetic. That doesn't gum up, one of the reasons why we don't have to change the oil in cars every 6000 like we did in the 1970's and earlier. Some oils say 25,000 miles between oil changes. I have a fast race car so I change the oil around 10,000. Like my car that uses a weird oil 0-4o I use the same for the rods on the clarinet.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2018-07-27 14:47)
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2018-07-27 18:38
Clarnibass mentioned the word "rust". I'm not sure what the intended context was, since I've never seen keys or screws rust in my limited experience - but I have seen rusty springs. If moisture gets on needle or leaf springs they can rust. That can easily happen if you blow accumulated moisture out from under pads. I do so fairly often, and I've learned to try and blow in a direction away from other mechanism on the instrument.
I've had a couple needle springs break, which after examination showed some rust involved. I've also seen leaf springs affected; none have actually broken, but the one under my throat A key is noticeably corroded, and it no longer reliably closes the key, and taking the key off and gingerly rebending the spring is becoming an increasingly short-lived fix. So I'm replacing that spring. And oiling the key(s).
If you put key oil on springs will it protect them from rust?
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2018-07-30 14:07
>> Clarnibass mentioned the word "rust". I'm not sure what the intended context was, since I've never seen keys or screws rust in my limited experience <<
I was referring to screws, which can and do rust sometimes. They are made from some type of steel (which type depends on brand/model) but even stainless steel screws can rust. It doesn't happen that often, but can happen significantly faster from lack of oil, weather (e.g. close to the sea), sweat of the player, etc. It's the main cause for stuck screws.
>> If you put key oil on springs will it protect them from rust? <<
Yes, though it doesn't mean they won't rust, or they might not rust without oil. This also depends on type of alloy, protective layer and conditions.
>> the one under my throat A key is noticeably corroded, and it no longer reliably closes the key, and taking the key off and gingerly rebending the spring is becoming an increasingly short-lived fix. <<
Replacing might be the best option, but something that happens occasionally is that the spring, particularly if it has sharp edges, digs into the area it is sliding against. Sometimes polishing the spring and/or the area under it can solve the problem. Maybe bending it more is just compensating for the real problem. Polishing can remove the protective layer from a blue spring, but that's not the end of the world. I often remove the sharp edge (or even an actual bur) from flat springs.
>> Gear oil is fine in my opinion. 80 weight.<<
Yes, gear oil is good as long as it doesn't have stuff in it that eventually gums up the hinge so you just have to know what to get.
80 weight is from the SAE scale and what I don't like about it is that there is gear oil SAE and engine oil SAE. It's not that confusing once you know how it works but I still prefer the clearer ISO scale.
80W gear oil is about the same as ISO 68 which is more or less what I use as a medium viscosity key oil (I use between 68 and 100, usually closer to the former). That's the oil I use for most clarinet hinges with rod screws. I've never had to increase spring tension from using this viscosity.
I use ISO 15 as a light oil (most trumpet valves, hinges on some instruments, etc.). I almost never use this for clarinet hinges. I don't know what the gear SAE equivalent is, can't find it in any chart.
I also use a heavy key oil, about ISO 480 (close to 150W gear oil), but almost never use it for rod screw hinges. I use it for pivot screws in addition to or instead of grease, depending on the case.
I have other inbetween voscosities that I don't think I use on instruments, only for machines.
Post Edited (2018-07-30 22:12)
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