 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: ben1948
Date: 2018-07-25 03:00
I'm 4 years into having taken up clarinet as a 66 year old with no prior experience and loving it. I'm currently learning St. James Infirmary, which I love. Most of it is at a languid pace and within my capability. My sheet music is in 12/8 time, and I'm counting it in 12 for now. At several places in the piece there are 4 beats in 3 counts or 2 beats in 3 counts. For the life of me, I haven't been able to get those timings right, even after listening to my teacher--but nothing he has told me so far is working for me. I don't have any trouble with triplets over 1 or 2 beats, but this is frustrating me.
Any tips or tricks on how to get over this?
Ben Withers - began clarinet 2014 at age 66
benjamin.f.withers@gmail.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ken Lagace
Date: 2018-07-25 05:05
I can only find St. James Infirmary in 4/4 time. Can you post a JPG pr PDF for us to see?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2018-07-25 06:08
It sounds like some arranger may have decided to write it out in 12-8 to notate the "swing" eighth notes. If that's the case, you're really making yourself work too hard by counting in 12 beats. You probably should work with your teacher to try to group those eighth-notes into four dotted-quarters (four triplets) per measure.
Thinking in four beats/measure might make the rhythms you're having trouble with easier. For example, if my understanding of the 12-8 meter is right and the four over three involves four eighth-notes over triplet eighths, what's really happening is that the arranger wants you to play four (eighth-)notes in the space of one beat, (a dotted-quarter), instead of three in a beat. Thinking of four beats (dotted-quarters) should make it fairly easy to fit four eighth-notes into one of them - you do it all the time in 4-4 meter. You just have to maintain the main pulse steadily.
Karl
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ben1948
Date: 2018-07-25 16:56
kdk is on the money with his post. It is marked as 12/8 time, but the tempo is listed as "16th Swing dotted quarter = 80", and my teacher has, in fact, had me go through with a pencil and divide it by dotted quarters (= 3 eighth notes), and I've tried to count it in 4, having done that--and that works fine for the majority of the piece, but for whatever reason I'm having a terrible time getting the timing right in the spots where there are essentially 2 or 4 eighth notes in the space allotted to a dotted quarter. In my original post, I was really looking if there is a counting aid similar to "1 and" or "1 e and a 2 e" which applies to the 4 over 3 or 2 over 3 bits. Is there a way to be precise, or is this like playing triplets, where you just have to get the "feel" for how they go?
At this stage of learning clarinet, if the rhythm is at all complicated, I seem to do a better job by subdividing the counting until I get the hang of it. That has also applied to pieces in the church orchestra I am in which are written in 6/8 and counted in 2, and sometimes 2/4 pieces are initially easier for me if I count them in 4 to start with.
Ben Withers - began clarinet 2014 at age 66
benjamin.f.withers@gmail.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ken Lagace
Date: 2018-07-25 17:07
6/8 is subdivided as 1 & a 2 & a etc.
12/8 is subdivided as 1 & a 2 & a 3 & a 4& a etc.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2018-07-25 17:48
Don't know the piece. Assuming people are right about the 12/8 being an attempt to notate swing, then you become familiar with that style and play it in swing, regardless of the notation; sometimes, notation is only an approximation. For the greater problem of playing an even 4 within 6/8 or 12/8 beats and so on, it can sometimes help to turn on the metronome, play several beats with 3 notes in them, then several beats with 4 notes in them until they both feel solid, and then shorten the number of beats until you can comfortably alternate 1 beat with 3 notes and 1 with 4 notes. Then you can start worrying about beats with 5 and 7 notes. It all seems hard until you get used to it, but you have to get really used to it.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2018-07-25 18:17
ben1948 wrote:
> In my original post, I was
> really looking if there is a counting aid similar to "1 and" or
> "1 e and a 2 e" which applies to the 4 over 3 or 2 over 3 bits.
>
If you need a pneumonic to cover the 4 over 3 spots, "1-e-and-a" (starting on whichever beat is involved) ought to work - it's exactly the same as 4 sixteenth notes in a quarter-note in 4-4 meter. "1-and" will cover a duplet over a triplet.
It may help to practice the 4 or 2 rhythm by playing only beats leading to the one with the out-of-meter pattern. If the quadruplet is in beat 3 of the bar, instead of playing all the notes (probably mostly quarter-eighth, which sound like "swing" eighths) in the regularly triplet-subdivided beats 1 and 2 preceding the quadruplet, just play the first note of each of those beats, holding that note out for the length of the beat. Play the rhythmic notes only in the quad beat, thinking, in 4-4, "1 - 2 - 3-e-and-a - 4" followed by the first note of the 4th beat. Do this so you only have to play the quad without having the triplets confuse you. You have to get that into your ear. Then go back and fill the other beats in, perhaps one at a time, always playing the quad the same way you played it without the other the triplets in the other beats.
Keep in mind that the players who created the style didn't all even read music. A mathematical way to handle this subdivision is only needed if you're programming computer music.
Karl
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2018-07-25 22:53
"Keep in mind that the players who created the style didn't all even read music. A mathematical way to handle this subdivision is only needed if you're programming computer music. " - Karl
Exactly! It appears that Ben is trying to learn how to play a difficult-to-present-in-writing rhythm. For that I have only admiration for both Ben and his instructor. It seems to be a good exercise.
However, the history of St. James Infirmary is long and twisted...but the song is (depending on which thread of history you tend to believe) very old and possibly comes from a timeframe in which musicians were interpretting/sharing ideas by ear - as bards or similar.
Fuzzy
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ben1948
Date: 2018-07-26 05:20
Thanks for the responses! I am analytical by nature and plead guilty as charged to overdoing it from time to time, LOL!
I had a lesson today and discussed, among other things, my 2 posts and your responses. He basically said there are notes which you absolutely need to hit on time, but the path between them doesn't necessarily have to be quite so precise. So we isolated the troublesome parts and played back and forth through them together, and I finally started getting the feel on these songs I like so much.
Thanks again for the helpful advice!
Ben
Ben Withers - began clarinet 2014 at age 66
benjamin.f.withers@gmail.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ned
Date: 2018-07-27 05:27
''...My sheet music is in 12/8 time, and I'm counting it in 12 for now...''
May I suggest that you dispense with the sheet music unless of course you are determined to play in 12/8. Here's Louis Armstrong from nineteen twenty eight on YT it's a benchmark recording. You'd be better placed to learn this (jazz, I mean) by ear...good luck.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMbRV5d7TeY
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
