 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2018-07-20 19:28
Matthew Simington asked me to comment on Joe Allard.
I have to say that I’m always reluctant to deal with so-called legendary teachers in anecdote, because I think that what they said was often tailored to the student in front of them, and I appreciate that therefore on other occasions they might have said something different.
Joe Allard is a bit different, though. I know what he said mainly from two sources:
http://joeallard.org/pedagogy.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-0N7XETP5M
Those ideas as they apply to the embouchure can be characterised under the three headings that I gave in the other thread:Quote:
(1) The position on the reed of the area of contact between lower lip muscles and reed;
(2) The size of that area of contact; and
(3) The pressure exerted on the reed by that contact. Joe Allard’s teaching allows for considerable variation in (1) and (2), and emphasises minimising (3).
But there is a further wrinkle that I was very happy to learn about. That is, that the geometry of (1) and (2) can distort the reed so that it is ‘bowed’ over the mouthpiece. If it is bowed in this way, the edges of the reed are closer to the mouthpiece than the centre, and that can be counterproductive. So you try to avoid curvature of the lower lip.
It seems to me that Allard’s teaching also supports the idea that playing an instrument is a sort of biofeedback. You first imagine the sound you want, then listen to the result. What you then do alters subtly so that the result is closer to what you imagined.
Because the lower lip in his system isn’t interfered with (by undue squashing, say) it is capable of this sort of learning.
Two anecdotes of my own, to which I’ll add another:
http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/lookup.php/Klarinet/2003/10/000046.txt
http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/lookup.php/Klarinet/2003/10/000123.txt
These anecdotes show that involuntary – indeed unsuspected! – tongue movements are involved in expert playing.
The third is: if I put my forefinger in my mouth in place of the clarinet reed and mouthpiece, and ‘play’, say, the Mozart concerto, I can feel very subtle changes in my lower lip. Those changes aren’t consciously achieved, but are driven by my previous experience.
So a novice player wouldn’t experience them. They too have to go through the learning experience.
I like the way that Joe Allard places great importance on his students ‘learning for themselves’ through exercises.
Tony
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2018-07-21 16:16
I studied with Joe some, and a current student of mine (he's in his 70's) studied with Joe for quite some time.
The video that is from the Masters Speaks is almost tragic from how Joe was and how he taught - many of Joe's students have said that. He was already deep into his illness which took his life (Alzhemers).
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2018-07-21 16:50
David Blumberg wrote:
>> I studied with Joe some, and a current student of mine (he's in his 70's) studied with Joe for quite some time.
>> The video that is from the Masters Speaks is almost tragic from how Joe was and how he taught - many of Joe's students have said that. He was already deep into his illness which took his life (Alzheimers).>>
So, what do you want to say about the embouchure-related pedagogical content of the video? Or about the embouchure-related pedagogical content of the other link, for that matter?
Tony
Post Edited (2018-07-21 16:58)
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2018-07-21 20:25
The position of the tongue, though often left out of discussions of embouchure, seems to me to be an integral part of making a musical sound. Beginners honk, squawk, wheeze, and buzz, not only because they lack firmness and developed neural sensitivity in their bottom tip, but because they are oblivious to the effect that tongue placement can have on control of sonority and pitch or what we call "voicing."
Tony's thought exercise of subtracting parts of the embouchure (take away the mouthpiece and the reed, then absent the lips and jaw), leaving you only with "the movement of the tongue" remind me of the Chesire Cat in Alice and Wonderland--but here we have a disembodied tongue in mid-air rather than a Chesire Cat smile.
The Shorter Oxford Dictionary leaves the tongue out of its definition of embouchure, "the manner in which a player's mouth and lips are placed ...," but the Chambers Dictionary and the New American Heritage Dictionary both include the position of the tongue in their lexical entry, as we also ought to do.
Post Edited (2018-07-21 20:29)
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2018-07-21 20:55
>> The Shorter Oxford Dictionary leaves the tongue out of its definition of embouchure, "the manner in which a player's mouth and lips are placed ...," but the Chambers Dictionary and the New American Heritage Dictionary both include the position of the tongue in their lexical entry, as we also ought to do. >>
If you're discussing the mechanism of the gearbox of a car, it makes no sense to say, ah, but the cylinders of the engine are ALSO important for the car, so we should include them in the analysis of the gearbox.
This pair of threads is not a suggestion of how we approach playing, or the teaching of playing. You need to be clear about that.
The intention is to dispel the fog around the subject, and to understand how different styles of teaching impact on the facts of the matter. So your redefinition of 'embouchure' does no work. In the other post, I was talking simply about the function of the lower lip.
I have talked about the other things on many occasions on this list – indeed, insisted on their importance – but not in that post.
Tony
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2018-07-21 21:41
Ah, you were talking about the lower lip, but if we accept the Chambers and American Heritage definition of embouchure as including tongue position, we are equally entitled to talk about the tongue when the word "embouchure" is mentioned. If we restrict the meaning as the Oxford definition has, then we are not. So choose your dictionary, and the proper discussion follows. Me, I'll take the tongue as an integral, essential part of the embouchure. always working, of course, in conjunction with the lips and jaw.
Post Edited (2018-07-21 22:05)
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2018-07-21 21:59
I had one four hour lesson with Joe Allard. One should be aware that he dealt with saxophone and clarinet players in different styles. He certainly offered many exercises for the student to work with. It was up to the student to find his own voice experimenting with the exercises. I mean of course a voice that is tempered given the music situation. I think his X description of the embouchure is essentially closing the mouth without a drawstring approach. (Dampening the reed on the sides). He sort of implies the drawstring is never good but he doesn’t actually say this. In his video he demononstrates the X while opening and closing the jaw. This means to me that there is pressure exerted on the reed. It isn’t a no pressure approach to embouchure. The embouchure corners however stay wide as opposed to”oo”. Obviously if you overdo the corners staying wide it is counterproductive. Too much work for no gain. Again the student would hear the results and decide when to use this and how much. He puts two fingers in the mouth, one on each corner of the embouchure while blowing a note to show how much the corner pressure dampens the sound. The fingers take the pressure off the sides of the reed and frees vibration. I think in his era it was common for Clarinetists to play on hard reeds and muscle the reed/mouthpiece. His exercises might be addressing some common issues with clarinetists and saxophonists.
Today we see similar embouchure corner exercises with flutists. They put a chopstick horizontally in the mouth and play long tones. This opens the jaw a bit and also makes one aware of the embouchure corners.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2018-07-21 22:20
That's pretty close to what I got from my sources.
I actually found the line of thought about keeping the embouchure 'flat' really quite helpful in a couple of situations, just now. I might not have picked that up had I not been concentrating on how Allard's system related to my previous post.
Just goes to show, we CAN learn from gearbox-type analysis.
Tony
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2018-07-22 08:03
Thanks for posting Tony, I’ll look through everthing.
- Matthew Simington
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2018-07-22 16:53
I studied bass clarinet with Joe Allard for most of one school year as a Junior while studying clarinet with Leon Russianoff. I was working on bass clarinet and having some problems with my upper register so I asked Russianoff what he thought about also taking lessons from Allard. He said he's a very good teacher and it's fine with him. Although most of my lessosn with Allard were on bass he did ask me to bring my clarinet in now and then. I really can't remember his changing anything drastic about my playing and can't recall him saying anything about my embouchure on either instrument. I remember him having me experiment with my tongue position some what and finally telling me the best result was from how I was originally placing my tongue. I do remember him talking about voicing and relaxing my throat in my upper register. It turned out that most of the problems I was having with the bass was the instrument and mouthpiece I was using so he helped me pick out a good Selmer bass and mouthpiece and gave me some good hints on choosing reeds. It was nice to be able to study with two teachers that had a mutual respect for each other.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2018-07-28 09:34
Harvey Pittel (Part 4) Embouchure - Presents the Saxophone Teachings of the Master, Joe Allard
This YouTube video is another source of information on Joe Allard’s teaching.
‘
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2018-08-04 00:51
Sorry - I didn't get a notice that my comment was replied to 
He was huge on not pinching off the corners of the reed into the Mouthpiece.
So was Anthony Gigliotti - some teachers grab the mouthpiece or barrel and shake it to see if it stays in place.
Both teachers wanted the mouthpiece to be able to move sideways if pulled in that direction. Joe would speak about not biting from the upper teeth as they would also force the lower jaw to clench in opposition from the upper teeth pressure. Also that only the lower jaw is able to move.
He was also singing (whistling?) high notes to voice them - must be able to hear the note to play the note!!
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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