 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: kchan ★2017
Date: 2018-07-17 02:25
Folks,
With Zinner no longer in production I was curious as to what mouthpiece vendors where planning to do for new blanks. When I checked the Richard Hawkins website last week I only saw his recent models, no "b" or "s" and now https://www.richardhawkinsmouthpiece.com/ returns a server not found. Did the website move?
Post Edited (2018-07-17 02:26)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-07-17 03:08
I recently sat down with both Walter Grabner and Davide McClune. Both have "stocked up" on Zinner blanks that should hold each of them for a couple of years or more. After that, there are other blank manufacturers out there such as Babbitt but it will probably affect pricing in an upward direction. And of course the blanks will be ...... different.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2018-07-17 12:50
I have complete confidence to spend $75,000 each on the 2 models molds I have.
So if I design something better I'll make another mold.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2018-07-17 13:15
With the Zinner's gone now the lost sound might come back. Between the instrument changes and the mouthpiece changes, plastic reeds, poor cane, the clarinet sound is in limbo.
Buffet is living from, as a legend in the 1960's, late 50, there past as some Buffet players won't ever try any other instrument. Yet there are really great horns to be played; often better than Buffet. New and use. The Selmer Series 9 and 10 are were very free blowing.
I'm thankful Zinner is gone. The very inexpensive Selmer Concept is a better mouthpiece if you have the rails worked on. If not it's stuffy.
I refaced a Yamaha Custom with a tip opening of 1.22mm's. Way to open. Took a good hours to reface it then adjust the baffle area and the rails. It's great! Tip is 1.10mm's
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: CapnCheapo
Date: 2018-07-17 21:54
I have a friend who contacted Richard Hawkins a few days ago regarding mouthpiece purchase. He told her that his Zinner stock was very low and that only a few models are still available. He took the website down and will be taking orders via email and that he would spend the summer researching how to continue his business.
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Author: Al_Martinez23
Date: 2018-07-18 05:17
Mr. Bernardo i’m interested to know why you think the Selmer Concept mouthpieces are better than the Zinner Blanks. What qualities does the concept have that the Zinner blanks lack?
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2018-07-18 16:17
Since my name was mentioned, I thought I would add a few thoughts.
I am very grateful to Hans Zinner and company. They made products of great quality and tremendous consistency. There have got to be 50,000 to 100,000 clarinetists out there playing on Zinner based mouthpieces. I should know as I have put over 10,000 mouthpieces out there myself. There are players in professional orchestras all over the world who are currently using Zinner based mouthpieces and sounding terrific.
Were their products perfect and suitable for everyone? Of course not. However, over the last 25 years or so, they have made a tremendous contribution to clarinet playing worldwide. At the end of their "run" it is really inappropriate to disparage their contribution in any way.
To correct the record, I have about 300 or so Zinner blanks in stock, enough to satisfy orders for quite awhile. Inevitably, I will begin to run out. What will I do?
In the short period of time since the Zinner closing announcement I have done a tremendous amount of research. It is not yet completely clear yet as to my direction, but there are some very exciting alternatives available. I will let everyone know my decisions over the next couple of months.
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2018-07-20 06:57
Al_Martinez23 -
Hi Al, The baffle/chambers on the French Zinner's are really deep in most cases. This is kind of cool when you play them close up because you get a very pleasant DARK sound. Then you feel like you hit the jackpot! So in a practice room setting you have this really nice sound. Now the German Zinner baffle/chambers were shallower. Very pleasant sounds.
If you don't play in any groups this is a great mouthpiece.
Here is the problem. They are too dark and too much material has been gutted out of the baffle/chamber behind the tip area. In fact it's so deep the tip opening usually has to be put down to about 1.03mm's or less. If you play on a Zinner with a 1.15mm tip opening most likely you will suffer a bit with a sore embouchure. /But not all Zinner's are made the same because of CNC machines. These are special computer controlled machines so the operator can control the depth of the baffle/chamber. A player can actually order a custom mouthpiece. But this takes a lot of time to set up and if the player doesn't like it well the Zinner is wasted.
Now in a symphony hall that deep baffle/chamber could or will cause projection issues, meaning that your sound won't carry really well and you will have to blow much harder than normal. But Zinner does have different models, so some aren't as bad as others.
I feel they are all bad to the point in which the American sound is lost right now. It's not just Zinner's fault. I blame this on the Vandoren M series for making mouthpieces too long and only tune to 440, then above high C they go flat to 438 as other instruments go higher in pitch such as the oboes, flutes and other instruments. I also put a lot of blame on Buffet. Their R13's tune to 440 also and again above high C you have to figure out different fingerings to play in tune. I've seen very talented players using 64mm barrels on A clarinets. The old R13's from the 1960's the standard barrels were 66 and 67mm's.
So these companies are jamming 440's down our throats. Yet most pro orchestras tune to 442 or 441. Take your pick. Boston is 442, Los Angeles Philharmonic is 442, so why are we accepting 440?
This is why I feel the American sound in GENERAL is lost. What do we do?
We really want a WARM sound. Not a flat dark sound. So our ears play tricks on us. Up close a dark mouthpiece can delete the high overtones. But we need these in a mouthpiece.
Long story short the Selmer Concept measures about a 1.15 tip opening. I have to adjust that and bring it down a bit. I prefer tip openings around 1.10 or less. Then I work on the rails which suck so badly, causing the mouthpiece to sound stuffy. But the baffle/chamber area is like the old school. Meaning what the greats played on from the past. Even Stanley Drucker, some of the better Kaspar's and Chedeville's. Now you have that warmer German type of sound that projects in any hall. Up close you might sound a shade brighter, but 10 feet away the mouthpiece rings and pings. You will be heard at the back of any hall.
Another very underrated mouthpiece is the Yamaha Custom, because so few players can handle it. The tip opening is often over 1.23mm's. Refaced it too is way better than most of the Zinner's, if not all of them. Players throw these Yamaha's out, but they are great! In the right hands they can play like the old Chedeville's.
I like the Yamaha's because the Concept rubber is softer.
Since you asked about the Concepts, mine are already done, but I'll be happy to set you up with a Concept or a Yamaha. Email me if you wish.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2018-07-20 19:26
Hi Bob, You say the baffle is so deep that the tip opening works best with a close 1.03mm opening. In my amateur adventures into refacing I found opening the tip effectively raises the baffle giving more highs or projection to the sound. One could then close the tip opening and maintain the higher baffle.(if you don’t want it so open). Of course this is time consuming. Essentially you should have started with a blank with a higher baffle but this technique helps make the blanks more usable. When manufacturers put a wide variety of facings on a blank it can cause mismatches.
Keith Bradbury of Mouthpieceworks has a video showing how to achieve similar effects by angling the facing plane. This is useful as there is only so much material to work with in the tip area and excessively opening the tip uses too much.
I do concede Bob that you have much more expertise in this matter. I just found opening and then closing the facing might be an effective bandaid (no pun intended) in this situation.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2018-07-23 17:58
Since we are talking about the "Zinner blank" here, I was wondering if we were talking about the "A" blank, the "E" blank, the "P88" blank or the "AW" blank. Or are we discussing the many proprietary blanks made by Zinner for many of the most discerning mouthpiece craftsmen?
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
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Author: KenJarczyk
Date: 2018-07-23 21:03
Very good point, Walter!
Depending on circumstances, I have several go-to mouthpieces, most of which are either Grabner or Fobes “Zinner” blanks, crafted to perfection by these masters.
I use the Grabner or the Fobes on Eb, depending on the type of composition being played. The Grabner is fabulous on all those screaming Eb solo parts that most folks fear. The Fobes does well on those, too - but has a mellower side. Both have dark-ish qualities that I love, and neither piece has any difficulty finding the back wall of any hall I’ve played in (recently Carnegie Hall in June).
For Bb & A, I love the Grabner K14 and the Fobes Europa 2. Both have lovely dark tones, and are a great match for my Selmers (Signature Bb, 10G A). I also really like Fobes’ new non-Zinner 10K, though I believe a lot of the engineering of it is quite “Zinneresque” so to speak.
My Bass is a Fobes, as well. His RR facing. Quite wonderful.
I love the dark, more German type sound I can create with these pieces, and they also can cut-loose on the occasional Klezmer gig.
The idea that Zinners produce a “dead” sound is just not true. I stand as a witness that they are marvelous mouthpieces, well crafted by master mouthpiece makers, and wherever someone sits in most any hall, they will hear your ppp all the way to your FFF.
Ken Jarczyk
Woodwinds Specialist
Eb, C, Bb, A & Bass Clarinets
Soprano, Alto, Tenor & Baritone Saxophones
Flute, Alto Flute, Piccolo
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Author: KenJarczyk
Date: 2018-07-23 22:06
Funny mouthpiece story, it is best if you can hear it in your mind in the voices of the real guys.
Charles Lloyd “ So I got this new Link piece. I played it for Johnny Griffin. Johnny says:”
“Charles, that ain’t no good that way, let’s go to the garage!”
Charles says “Johnny grabs my drill and a big ass bit, and starts gouging out the insides!”
Johnny saying “You got to get as big a chamber as you can!”
Then Charles finishes the story: “He was right! It was great, until I noticed air started blowing up my nose, from where he sort-of drilled through!”
Ken Jarczyk
Woodwinds Specialist
Eb, C, Bb, A & Bass Clarinets
Soprano, Alto, Tenor & Baritone Saxophones
Flute, Alto Flute, Piccolo
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