 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: AHS
Date: 2018-07-09 06:44
I play a B-flat Buffet E-45. It is consistently sharp and I have to pull out the barrel almost a centimeter to bring it into tune with either a tuned piano or A440. Can this be remedied with a new barrel? If not are there other solutions?
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Author: Burt
Date: 2018-07-09 07:13
Pulling out 1 cm would mean that the clarinet is almost coming apart, and likely has a lot of wobble. You could pull out some at the mouthpiece so you don't have to pull out as far at the barrel.
When you pull out almost 1 cm, is the clarinet in tune with itself? If so, a longer barrel is a solution. You probably won't find any 1 cm (10mm) longer than what you have, but getting a barrel several mm longer than what you have, and then pulling out some should work. Use tuning rings to maintain the right spacing and to prevent the gap in the bore.
My problem is the opposite - I use a 63mm barrel and had my (M30) mouthpiece cut shorter.
If the clarinet is not in tune with itself, pull out some between the joints and at the bell, as well as at the barrel. Use G4, C4 and G3 in that order to determine the 3 spacings. Some notes will be sharp and others will be flat, but it will be a lot closer than pulling out only at the barrel.
If all else fails, try playing with an ice cube in your mouth. Just joking...
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Author: GenEric
Date: 2018-07-09 08:02
I"m having a similar issue. I think it has to be due to the weather in the summer. My clarinet is in tune during the winter but right now, i'm having all sorts of problems. I'll be going to a music store soon and trying out different barrels to see if there is any improvement.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2018-07-09 10:17
Some possibilities for being extremely sharp...
- You are a beginner and you are pressing too firmly with your jaw
- You are not a beginner but the same
- You are using a setup (mouthpiece/reed) that requires you to press much too firmly
- Your mouthpiece plays very sharp for some reason
- It's a pretty old clarinet, so maybe the barrel was changed or shortened at some point (often done by folk/klezmer players and some doublers, though usually not by that much)
- Very hot and humid conditions (I once had to open a total of more than 1cm when recording in almost sauna like conditions)
- Least likely but still possible, something wrong with the clarinet itself
- I guess even less likely is that the 440 and the piano you checked are not actually tuned to that
- Just to verify, you know the clarinet is a transposed instrument and you are not trying to compare the same notes (by name), right? Opening even that much won't bring most of the notes down by that much anyway
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2018-07-09 18:41
I'd agree pretty much with clarnibass's analysis, except with the overriding thought that Buffet simply wouldn't have made a clarinet that was so sharp that the OE barrel would need to be pulled out nearly a centimeter (a little less than half an inch). So, it seems as though establishing if this barrel is the original or a replacement is important.
If it's original and has been altered, or if it's a non-Buffet barrel, you should try to find out what the barrel length was that was designed for the E45. Most of Buffet's Bb clarinets that I've seen come with a 66mm barrel. Maybe there's something unique about the E45 design that I don't know about, but I've never seen a Buffet barrel for a Bb or A clarinet any longer than 68mm nor shorter than 64mm. If yours is very much short of 66mm, you might see what a standard 66mm barrel does for you.
Karl
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Author: AHS
Date: 2018-07-10 06:22
Thank you (and everyone else) for the detailed responses. I have been playing clarinet for many decades (let's just leave it at that), and so, I am by no means a novice. I purchased the Buffet E-45 new and the barrel is stamped by Buffet, so I think that it's highly unlikely that there have been any replacements. I recently had the instrument checked out and pads, etc. replaced. The only recent change (and in retrospect this happened at about the time that I noticed the tuning issue) was that I started using a Vandoren M-15 mouthpiece. As per Vandoren's suggestion, I switched from 3 to 3 1/2 reeds, but for reasons other than tuning, I recently switched bag to 3's and the tuning issue is still present. I'm very happy with the sound of the M-15, but is it possible that the mouthpiece is the source of my tuning problem?
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2018-07-10 10:53
AHS wrote:
> <snip>The only recent change (and in retrospect
> this happened at about the time that I noticed the tuning
> issue) was that I started using a Vandoren M-15 mouthpiece.
> is it possible that the mouthpiece
> is the source of my tuning problem?
Was the M-15 new or a second-hand online purchase (could it have been modified by a previous owner)?
Going back to your description of having to pull out "almost a centimeter," I don't see how a standard mouthpiece and a barrel of standard length on a Buffet E-45 could be so sharp as to need to be pulled out that much.
Do you still have whatever you were using before you got the M-15? Have you tried going back to it to compare the pitch it produces? Something isn't right about some component of the system. First suspicion is that either the mouthpiece or the barrel must be very much out of spec. What length is the barrel? How does the length of the mouthpiece compare to any others (including your old one, if you have it)?
A VD M-15 Traditional model will play sharper than an M-15 Series 13, but enough to require a 1 cm correction? Hard to believe. The Traditional blank was all that was available when the E-45 was being made.
You haven't said whether or not the setup actually plays in tune with itself (never mind a tuner or piano on A) with the barrel out almost a centimeter.
Karl
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Author: LGS316217
Date: 2018-07-10 17:53
I, too, am consistently sharp (on my primary horn and on my backup). I'm going with the too-much-pressure-from-the-jaw theory and would like to try a new mouthpiece/reed setup to see if it improves. The back story is, I started up playing seriously about 9 months ago after a 20 year lapse. So, embouchure is not where I want it to be, but it's making progress. I am playing on a Selmer 2 star mouthpiece, a model that I think is no longer in production. It's the same model I played on 20 years ago, though not the identical mouthpiece (the particular one I have is old, all right, but it was dead stock; not used). Throughout the year I progressed up to a Mitchell Lurie premium 2.5 reed, sometimes a Vandoren 2.5. I've got some Mitchell Lurie 3's on order and we'll see how I do with those. My ligature is an ancient, random probably not great quality one. Currently pulling the barrel out about 2.5 mm with okay results, but with the heat/humidity, it's hard to keep in tune anyway. Should I look at different mouthpieces/ligatures now, or wait until my chops are fully up to speed?
Amy Paul
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-07-10 18:57
I too could not find a handy reference for the E-45 clarinet. One OTHER possibilty is that the horn was constructed to play at European (or German) pitch, closer to A=445. That makes a huge difference (not just a few cents as one might imagine). Just as an example Karl Leister used two entirely different sets of clarinets between playing at home in Berlin at 445 and when he toured outside of Germany, particularly the United States.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2018-07-10 19:00
Pulling 2.5mm is enough to make you want to find something that's pitched lower (but it's still a lot less than a centimeter). I don't know anything about your Selmer 2*, but it could be tuned to A442 or thereabout. Some mouthpieces tune higher than others. Just to check the theory, you could try a Vandoren Series 13 model - M13, M13Lyre, M15 (or others, depending on the tip and facing curve you prefer). The 13 Series is deliberately pitched lower than the Vandoren Traditional counterparts. I never noticed, either, that the D'Addario X0 or X5 I played for a short while were sharp.
There are American makers who produce mouthpieces that play at about A=440 without the Vandorens' drawbacks. The Fobes CF and CWF I've used are in tune. Walter Grabners's mouthpieces never seemed sharp. The ones I recently bought from Bob Bernardo and am currently using tune very well.
I wouldn't wait to try things - 9 months is time enough to have gotten the muscles up to strength.
Karl
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Author: AHS
Date: 2018-07-11 00:51
Here are two links for the E45 (the second is from an earlier discussion here):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffet_Crampon
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=372985&t=372277
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-07-11 03:23
Great, thanks for references.
So does anyone know for sure if some were made to European pitch standards?
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2018-07-11 09:00
Re the "European" pitch, I don't know if any Buffets were made to play at 445... I haven't heard of any French system ones... but is 445 even standard anywhere? Some Buffets are supposedly made to 442, but the difference is often a 1mm shorter barrel. Anyway most professional players here play regular Buffet clarinets, with 65mm and 66mm barrels, and need to play at 442 which is the most common here (we use both 442 and 440 here all the time).
A rough calculation... randomly choosing a relatively long note, let's say 400mm (around low Bb or A from memory). Even using the unlikely extremes of 440 and 445, the difference is about 1.1%. It doesn't work 100% like that since there could some other factors, but it's pretty close. The difference (for the 400mm note) would be about 4.4mm. Low F would be about 6mm longer. Even that is still much less than his "almost a centimeter" measurement/estimate, let alone the throat notes which would be in the 2mm to less than 3mm area, nowhere near 10mm.
Again this is for the extreme and unlikely case of this clarinet being tuned to 445.
I guess two more possibilities... if this clarinet is extremely sharp for whatever reason, they are basing their measurement/estimate when tuning the longest notes. In this case the throat notes and most others would be much too low when opened this much... are they?
The other is that the measurement/estimate is off. I know a lot of people who could easily see 2mm and call it "almost a centimeter".
Though as I mentioned, I did have to pull a total (from all joints combined) of more than 10mm, with a clarinet made to play at 440/442 and normally does with no or just a little opening at the barrel, because of conditions (extreme heat and humidity).
Post Edited (2018-07-11 09:05)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-07-11 15:30
There may not be an engineered difference in pitch on the E45, but it may be handy for those interested to get their hands on, for example, a Boosey and Hawkes Symphony 1010. All of the 1010s were made to a higher pitch standard (as well as engineered to be played exclusively with its specifically made mouthpiece that has a cylindrically shaped bore). Or you could try Wurlitzer 100c (though the fingering system is different....you'd get the idea). In either case the pitch ramifications attempting to play at A=440 are rather startling. One ramification is that the internal pitch relationships become strained (and untenable in most high pitch horns) at the point where you can get an average number of notes close to 440.
In both above examples (which I have owned), I have had barrels pulled out to around the centimeter mark. This is why I toss this idea out there.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: AHS
Date: 2018-07-11 18:21
Thanks to everyone for all the thought and attention my problem has generated.
I spent some time yesterday conducting several experiments to see if I could diagnose the cause of the sharp tuning on my E45. First, I replaced the Vandoren M-15 mouthpiece that I've been using with the original Buffet mouthpiece that came with the instrument. Differences in tuning were minimal. Next, I checked the relative tuning throughout the instrument. Interestingly, low E was very flat, but the rest of the notes were in relative tune, more or less, although the notes above the break, and particularly the higher notes were somewhat less sharp, but not dramatically so (of course there's the question of how my embouchure plays into changes in relative tuning - more on that below). Next I tried correcting the tuning to A445. This was a little difficult to do exactly (for reasons too trivial to go into), but the tuning was certainly better for A445. However, I think that this is just another way of saying that the instrument is playing sharp to begin with. I've followed the discussions here about possible differences in German vs. French tuning (my E45 was, in fact, made in Germany), but that doesn't strike me as a good explanation for an instrument marketed by a French company (Buffet) under its name. Finally, yes, I do know what a cm looks like. So, I think that that leaves me with only two possible explanations: 1. There's something very strange and aberrant about the instrument, or; I'm the problem. As I've said, I've been playing for many decades. For a lot of that time, I've played alone or informally with others where exact tuning hasn't been a serious issue. Now, I'm playing chamber music and exact tuning is, of course, an issue. It may be that I've fallen into a bad and too tight embouchure, but since I've been trying to diagnose this problem, I've been making a conscious effort to loosen my embouchure. While that helps, in order to bring the pitch down sufficiently for me to only have to pull out the barrel 2-3 mm, I have to loosen my embouchure to the extent that things just sound bad and the high register becomes a problem. It's still possible, however, that I've developed bad habits that I'm not aware of.
So, bottom line. whether it's the clarinet or me, I'm stuck. Can someone suggest someplace in the NY City area where someone can diagnose the problem in person and where if necessary, I can get a specialty barrel that can compensate for whatever is going on?
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Author: Burt
Date: 2018-07-11 21:16
Regarding your comments about relative tuning, did they apply to keeping the barrel all the way in, or to pulling out 1cm? If the former, did you buy a B (as opposed to Bb) clarinet? (I don't know whether anybody has made such an instrument. My understanding is that the Germans call "Bb" as "B" and "B" as "H".)
If the latter, you could get an extension made of aluminum or hard rubber to go at ether end of the barrel.
There's no way a clarinet could be in tune with itself both ways.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-07-11 21:20
Dear AHS
Well if you're in the city, just head to Buffet at 153 W. 36th St.#4. First thing, try out a few new Buffet R13s with a tuner and compare to your horn. If it's is a barrel thing, they would be able to hook you up.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: AHS
Date: 2018-07-12 18:29
I called the Buffet showroom in NY City and they said I could bring in my clarinet and they'd take a quick look at it, but they said that they didn't stock barrels. Any recommendations of places in NYC that would have a good selection of (longer) barrels and our joint spacers?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-07-12 18:44
Sorry 'bout that.
Frederick Weiner: Huge selection of just about anything
168 Jericho Tpke
Mineola NY 11501
Ok, not technically in the City, Uber over there (just past Queens).
Sign over the door reads: "Poppas Music Music"
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2018-07-12 23:17
AHS wrote:
> I called the Buffet showroom in NY City and they said I could
> bring in my clarinet and they'd take a quick look at it, but
> they said that they didn't stock barrels.
FWIW, my vote would be to let them have a look at it at the Buffet showroom and see if they agree that the problem is the barrel. If they don't have a better explanation for the problem, then shop for barrels.
Also, I've dealt with Weiner Music for years online and found them very helpful and fairly priced. They're my first choice in music supplies. But, from what I've read in other comments here on the board, they aren't really set up for walk-ins and would prefer to have people call ahead who want to come in to the store so they can get things out of their stock room to look at.
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-07-13 00:50
Karl,
It's a small retail set-up. All their stock is in the basement. When I sampled and bought an R13 there in the '90s, they were pretty good about having a little room for me to use and bringing out horns (they actually brought out a few Yamahas unprompted).
But they are busy, and New Yorkers, so don't waste their time. If you're just "looking," expedite the process.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: donald
Date: 2018-07-13 05:16
The first most obvious thing I'd do is find another player who can play test your instrument to see if they encounter the same problem (likewise I'd also try their instrument, just to confirm your suspicion that it is the instrument that is causing the problem)
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Author: shmuelyosef
Date: 2018-07-15 21:05
Simple question...have you tried any mouthpieces other than the M-15? Even something generic like a Fobes Debut would be validation that it clearly is the horn.
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Author: AHS
Date: 2018-07-18 21:29
Yes. I tried playing with the original mouthpiece that came with the clarinet, and the tuning issue was the same.
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