 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-06-15 14:52
On the thread about trading in a Festival clarinet, Mark said, "I personally would spend the extra 300 bucks and buy local. When you need your horn the next day and there's a problem - even FedEx won't work if you have to send it out. Patronizing your local shop and letting them get to know you can really save the day."
I have to agree with this. There's a point where the bottom line isn't the dollar amount of the instrument. It's the maintaining over a long period of time that is hard to put a price on.
I've bought cheap and I've bought expensive from my local dealer. Of course, I usually ask him to give me his best deal and tell him the competition's price. He always makes me a good deal because I've been buying clarinets, guitars, drums, etc. for over 40 years from this same store. It's now a Brook Mays affiliate and I can really get some good prices, but I have a long-standing relationship with them. Every salesman knows me when I come in and the clarinet repairman knows what I want when I take one of my instruments to him.
Having bought and sold a few instruments this last year, I have gotten a bit frustrated with the constant battle for the lower price. We all need to save money, but weigh the option of taking your instrument across town and to a dealer whom you've gotten to know. Sometimes I just go up the back stairs and go right to the repairman's workstation and say, "Hey, Mark, will you adjust this little thing right here?" He always stops what he's doing and takes care of it right on the spot. Of course, this is only if he's not overloaded with getting ready for school repairs.
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Author: Sue B
Date: 2001-06-15 15:12
I have to agree with this. I looked online and decided to buy my clarinet at a nice local shop. I was lucky their price was very much in line with what was being offered online and they had a few R-13's I could try in their practice rooms downstairs.
It is nice to be able to walk into a place and see the exact instrument or mouthpiece I am buying. Not to mention being able to thumb through the file cabinets full of music.
I liken this a bit to my personal feeling that I shouldn't browse at my local bookstore and then buy from amazon and expect that my local bookstore will be there the next time I need something today.
Well off to the music store to pick up my clarinet and a birthday gift for my 11 year old niece who has just started playing clarinet.
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Author: Mario
Date: 2001-06-15 15:30
The E-Commerce and Dot Com world has crashed because sellers forgot that "people buy from people". It is an old truth that technology has no altered.
On-line shopping is for commodity products. Clarinets are not commodity product.
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Author: jbutler
Date: 2001-06-15 17:28
To the above, I say it is true. I always buy locally rather than mail order whenever possible. However, on the flip side, I have a small repair shop that I operate out of the home. I have a postal box that I have deliveries made to so someone's R-13 isn't dropped on my doorstep by UPS while I'm making a horn deliveries or whatever (I do repair work for one of the local music stores). I don't have the luxury of a store front (yet!) I don't try to compete with the local retailers on new instruments, but I do try to supplement my income by fixing up good quality used instruments and advertising them on my website. Believe me, I'm not getting rich on it either. However, the internet is a good medium for me to get business other than what I can pick up locally and offer quality merchandise.
Some of my repair work does come from out of town. I try to do my best to set up the instruments as per instructions from customers, but I do prefer to have them play them and let me do some "tweaking" while they are at my home shop. I like to make sure that everything is "A-OK". I think it is a trade-off for the consumer and the retailer, but both would rather do business directly.
John
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Author: Ginny
Date: 2001-06-15 19:03
When I was a kid we mail ordered most of our school clothes and took one trip a year up
to San Francisco, for shoes and a few things. If they don't have much choice close by,
or the prices are not similar to mail order (when you add the shipping in, its usually about
the same) I don't hesitate to send for it.
My home got swallowed by Silicon Valley, (don't get me started! I detest all the yuppie dot.commies who've moved here, I'll never see an office building or 'luxury condo'
as lovely as an apricot tree!) But these newcomers are mostly interested in money money and
more money...so not much improvement in music store stuff since maybe 1975. In fact
a bunch of them have gone out of business and there are only a handfull of new ones.
I buy some stuff locally, some I order, some I drive north for. I do the price, its the capitalist way...but I count postage and driving time and convience.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-06-15 20:45
Well, don't get me wrong, I buy online as much as anyone--and I sell clarinets and accessories on eBay and through word of mouth. But, it's mostly a hobby to supplement my own equipment needs and also I give instruments to needy kids--so it's not like I'm going to get rich and be able to live off what I make on eBay sales, etc. And, I have to add, I'm an honest seller and I know lots of others who are honest sellers.
The point I'm making is that I don't think the bottom line decision should be based upon the selling price. Sometimes it pays to spend a little more and buy as close to home as possible. If something has to be shipped to be fixed, you're going to be without it and have to go to a backup instrument for a while. If you're ok with that--fine. But, doing business long distance if there's a problem can sometimes be a pain. And if the merchant isn't interested in developing a relationship with you and really begins to care about your needs as a musician, perhaps you're being cheated in the long run. I try to meet the needs of my customers based upon their finances and musical requirements. Although it's usually through email, at least there is some connection.
But even with all the options, woodwind and brasswind, international musical suppliers, brook mays and eBay, etc., I still like going down to Caldwell Music Co. on Grape St. here in Abilene and sitting in Gil De Shazo's office and chatting about instruments. We have a long friendship and many mutual interests and he goes out of his way for me. Not the usual set up for online trading--unless it's one of the good guys like JButler and Greg Smith and other "Sneezies."
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Author: Ken
Date: 2001-06-15 21:41
Outstanding post Brenda, I'd conduct business with you anyday. <:-)
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2001-06-15 21:47
Very well said, Brenda, John and all, I have little to add other than to suggest locating the better pricing and communicating it to a local seller in a friendly but competitive-bargaining manner to achieve both keeping a local in business and getting non-outlandish "asking" prices. I have had some success in being a inst. consultant to our local music store! Best wishes, Don
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Author: Carl L
Date: 2001-06-16 01:32
It depends on the instrument. There are a half dozen stores that carry decent tubas; the average music store can't handle the huge overhead. I tend to give my business to Baltimore Brass or The Tuba Exchange in Chapel Hill. Buying a new tuba is an ordeal. Shipping costs a fortune and like all instruments on the upper cost scale you don't buy without trying first- and you better like the horn you buy.(You think spending three grand on a clarinet sets you back? How about ten to twelve grand for a Hirshbrunner or B&S tuba? And what tubist worth his salt doesn't own at least one C, one Bb, and one Eb? Do the math... )
Since my bread and butter (literally) summers is Bluegrass, I travel up to Elderly Music in Lansing, Michigan for fiddles and fiddle supplies. It takes me four hours to drive there from Cleveland but it's worth it. They have over a hundred fiddles at any given time in all price ranges. Again, I don't buy without trying, and I mean putting the instrument through it's paces. I'll spend five hours there bowing a half dozen "keepers" before I take one home. Banjos are a whole different problem. I pick left-handed and generally have to have Gibson or Deering make my banjos to my specs. Leftys rarely show up in the used departments and are grabbed up as fast as they become available.
Trombone, euphs and clarinets I play for fun and grab 'em locally from local dealers, if possible. I have to take a minute to share today's experience at Sam Ash Music, a big chain which has one of it's stores about ten miles from my home. I saunter in this afternoon and ask John (woodwinds/brasswinds dept manager) if he has any Selmer HS mouthpiece I could try. He gives me the thousand yard stare and says, "Try? As in take-out-of-the-box and put-to-your-mouth?" Ah, yeah, it'd be tough to try them still IN the box. Well, "No can do" says John. Like you, Brenda, I've been in and out of this store for ten years an spent a small fortune on books, accessories, etc. Doesn't matter. John ain't takin' that mouthpiece out of its box come hell or high water. Then I said, "Ah, O.K., at least explain the difference between this HS* and this other HS**." John throws the Selmer catalogue across the counter and says, as he turns to do the paperwork on that all-important rental return, "It's in there somewhere." Ah, that wonderful personal service we've all grown to know and love...I'm assuming John was having an extremely bad day...
Having said that, I'll still agree with those who say support your local music store. I hope the day never comes when we have to go dot.com to buy all our musical goodies!
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Author: Gene Wie
Date: 2001-06-16 09:13
A few things to consider:
1. With you as a paying customer, any decent repair shop is going to perform the necessary adjustments and repairs on your instrument regardless of where you bought it from.
2. Just because I bought my instruments online and/or overseas doesn't mean I don't bring it into my local shop here to have work done on it.
3. Technology advances in instrument construction have increased the uniformity and quality at the bottom line, i.e., things are on average never worse than a certain level (this is especially true for instruments like saxophones).
4. It's impossible for me to try to support my "local store" when they're charging 200% of the cost of the instrument from other sources. $300 I can understand. But ~$2000? This is not a case of a store having a slight markup, but the establishment actually selling instruments for twice the going rate compared to shops online in Europe (even after duties and shipping). In this case I am more than willing to hedge my bet with the quality of top instrument manufacturers and have the instrument come from one of those "dot com" sources.
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Author: Sue B
Date: 2001-06-16 09:35
Well Gene that is pretty extreme on the price difference you noted.
I would have to agree that though I would be willing to pay $100-$200 premium to buy locally. Double the price would not be acceptable. In my case I even got luckier than that and paid pretty much what it would have cost online for my clarinet.
Maybe it's a function of living near enough to Boston that there are plenty of reputable and large music stores around that these folks need to be competitive with.
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Author: Dee
Date: 2001-06-16 11:09
Actually if you've got the catalogs from the major dealers to show your local retailer, many will come close to that price to get and keep your business. You don't have to be near Boston or any other large city. You just have to be a smart, savvy buyer.
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Author: jerry
Date: 2001-06-16 12:38
I firmly agree with Brenda's last post about being able to walk into a store, be recognized and to be able to "visit" with people you know there. Especially if you are in the business of buying and selling or if one just likes to "hang out". But how much is that worth? (Back to $$$$ again -- no appologies here, but I've always been for free enterprise).
I have been an amateur radio operator longer than I've been into music but I see that there are similarities when it comes to buying. Why should I pay the local guy $1800 for a radio that I can buy mailorder for $1500? Throw in another $150+/- for local tax and...............
Sorry, I can't see the point of paying $300-$400 for visiting rights. Anymore, with amateur radios, one can hardly repair his own because of the need for sophisticated equipment to repair and tune the newer radios. The local stores do not do it either -- the equipment has to be returned to the factory. I know that with radio equipment, the dealers here in Dallas have either gone mailorder themselves or out of business because they too are in it for the $$$. I go to the local radio store for things that are less than "big ticket" items. When I do, there is a different person behind the counter -- who can get acquainted. We live in a mobile society and that's the way things are.
This is Dallas, where Brenda lives (Dallas used to be that small) it is probably the best idea to do as much business local as one can.
Personnaly, if I am going to have to pay a few hundred bucks more, buying local, I opt for mailorder (from a reputable co.). All things being equal, I don't mailorder to save only the tax. The local store (and it aint small) has the same opportunity to offer me the same price as the out-of-town store. Afterall, mailorder is how Sears, Roebuck & Co., and Montgomery Ward, became the superstores of their day -- you see what has happened to Ward's; marketing, that's what it's about.
IMHO
~ jerry
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-06-16 15:29
jerry - radio gear doesn't vary like a set of clarinets. How the hack is your local dealer supposed to keep the 10 clarinets in stock for you to try out when you come in?
If you treat clarinets as commodity items and don't care about trying them out at a store, if you don't care about the time involved in getting warrantee work done - go ahead, buy mail order to save a couple of hundred bucks. I can tell you a horror story of a cracked Festival and the bull---- that Brook-Mays put us through since we were a thousand miles away from their nearest store (almost mail-order - we purchased the clarinet at a ClarinetFest and it cracked a couple of months later. Buffet put it right, but not after <b>4 months</b> of being sc---ed around by Brook-Mays).
I used to deal via the Internet for computer parts. No more after similar horror stories. It was to save a few buck <b>on commodity items</b>. Now, if the price is withing 15-20% - I buy local. I can walk in, say it doesn't work, and get my money back or an exchange. No more RMA hell. The years added to my life because of lower stress levels more than compensates for the few dollars difference.
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Author: Terry Horlick
Date: 2001-06-16 16:25
Don't forget that it is really hard to support the local store when they don't care about the customer. If they lock the doors because it is 10 minutes to closing and then won't talk to the customer who shows up on the doorstep, it doesn't matter what the price is, how well they talk clarinet, what the range of accessories they stock. They have permanently turned the customer into somone who would rather wander the "e"-waves than go to their store. A stupid batch of clerks can kill the business for the store... and the contract repair person.
So I think that if you have <b><I><font color="yellow">GOOD</FONT></i></B> local stores, then support them. Otherwise look on-line for deals from dot.commies who have a good reputation for standing behind their wares... which usually means they have a piece of real estate somewhere where you can find them. (Appologies John, but when you don't know the person you are sending the bucks to you want to think they are invested enough to stick around!)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-06-16 16:45
Terry,
I think the <b><font color="yellow" face="Arial, Helvetica" size="+1"><i>Good</i></font></b> is obvious - I don't support any poorly run store. They deserve to go out of business.
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Author: Bob Arney
Date: 2001-06-16 22:50
Ok, Ok, Y'all Win. How did you get the GOLD little/big GOOD?????
Bob A
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Author: SALT
Date: 2001-06-17 00:32
"With you as a paying customer, any decent repair shop is going to perform the necessary adjustments and repairs on your instrument regardless of where you bought it from."
I have a friend at school who took her clarinet in to get a pad replaced and the repair guy just glued the same pad back on even though she paid for a new one!
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Author: joevacc
Date: 2001-06-17 03:37
I have tried desperately to support my local store and I do when I can. That said, they cater to ALL the schools in the area and they never have any thing in stock for more advanced players. They can order anything but it takes weeks for them to get it together. They have no reeds, music or books in stock that aren't for beginning students. They have absolutely no new band instruments in stock and their used instruments are not pro quality.
They are very competent repairers but are so swamped with school instruments that you feel as though you are putting them out to do a little tweak for you, let alone any major repairs. I'm in New York and I sent my last repair that was over my head all the way to John butler in Texas! The particular store I'm referring to is by far the best in the area and are very friendly.
I think that the online companies that are run by real people are doing a service for people who don't live in metropolitan areas. I am not that far from New York City and find it hard to shop even in the big city. In all of the stores in the city there are only a couple that have knowledgeable service and with their over head it is very hard to keep up with the "dot.com's".
I could go on but suffice it to say that the small stores that can keep up with their work load and are able to give good service will stay in business. I would like it much, much better to "kick some tires" but the UPS and FedEx people come running to my door regularly. ;~)
Best,
-=[Joe Vacc]=-
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Author: Jim
Date: 2001-06-17 04:50
I live in South New Jersey an hour from Philly. I've recently bought 2 insturments (an R13, and a Korg digital piano) from mail order cos. Each beat the local store (that's singular) significantly. The clarinet did have a warranty problem, it was handled well by Muncy, and with UPS ground we were without the horn for 8 days. The local store has a tech 2 days a week, and sends out anything more serious than a pad replacement with at least a 2 week turnaround. The Korg has been flawless... and I dread any thoughts of ever shipping it. My alternative to mail order is the drive to the Philly area.
At least here, local stores are becomming a thing of the past. Someone mentioned bookstores, my local one is a Broders store. How much more local is that than Amazon. Home Depot has just about wiped out the local hardware stores. As much as I like to buy locally, I'm caught in a national (global?) economy.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-06-17 05:23
At a Borders or Barnes & Noble, even though they're giant chains, I can browse the books, read a magazine in a comfortable chair, drink a cup of coffee, and talk to some of the clerks - some of which are very knowledgable. These stores didn't start big, but they offered customer service.
A lot better and more satisfying than emailing some Amazon clerk.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-06-18 03:22
I don't think you can generalize here. Every purchase is a new & different experience --- different personalitries, different objectives, different pocketbooks, etc.
I get great service locally --- I bring a lot of traffic with me. I KNOW that Brenda and others do, too. _BUT_ how will others who go to the store 1X or 2X a year to buy reeds & such come out?
Best,
mw
BTW: Its hard to buy reeds at your local store. EX: Weiner sells V12's 8 boxes for $100 & Brook Mayes gets $165 locally .... IMS had a special earlier this year where Vandoren Traditional reeds (blue box) were sold for $11.00 a box.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-06-18 14:32
I don't buy everything from my local dealer--but most of my personal equipment is bought from him because I want to be able to have it serviced locally. Most accessories are purchased online through woodwind and brasswind or international musical suppliers. Mouthpieces are personally bought from Greg Smith, Charles Bay or other mouthpiece makers.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-06-19 00:35
GOTCHA.
It's still a sticky wicket. Things don't get easier when you send a horn to be Brannenized, Yan-on-ized or Butler-ized! : )
Its like Ringo said "you know It just ain't easy".
Best,
mw
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Author: Meri
Date: 2001-06-19 23:38
I take advantage of both. If there's something that I know I can get here, but is too expensive locally (after working out duty, shipping, and exchange rate), I bring any one of the several catalogues that has the item that I like at the best price and negotiate a comparable price. With one exception, it works. But the exception was with a dealer I didn't know that well.
Meri
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-06-20 05:21
Negotiate a comparable price? In most cases I doubt that is possible. (except for the Mars, Sam Goody's & Brook Mayes-type chains) On the other hand, an acceptable (but _not_ comparable) price may be negotiated as Brenda & Mark state ... a price you can live with, allowing for the "local service" aspect of things.
Bill Hausman who frequents the Klarinet List told us some time back that in many cases the WW&BW (& catalogues like it, IMS etc) sell Clarinets & accessories for prices that are LESS than small-medium sized dealer cost!
..... so if somebody was matching the catalogue price, they would be losing money before taking into account the cost to floor plan (interest), freight-in & wages paid for ordering & receiving & bringing into stock.
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Author: Meri
Date: 2001-06-21 01:30
mw:
Not necessarily. They'll still be making money from the people who don't know about where they can get a better price. Of course, if a lot of people do it, then they could be losing money (but not necessarily, thanks to sometimes-large profit margins), but that's not likely to happen, especially with the chain stores like Long & McQuade's in Canada. Some will give you a better price just to get your business. In the very least, you show your lack of ignorance.
Meri
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-06-21 02:39
Remember, Meri, I said we should skip the BIG chain dealers, YES .. they can do it. NO QUESTION --- but my experience is that they won't do it on a regular basis --- the big guys won't match a catalogue on a daily basis. They have too many toads who are available to kiss.
The BIG FELLAS will lower their price to a point, that if you really do want to do business with them you'll be middling the price, but staying local/loyal. That is why Mark said "pay $300 more & buy it locally". he knows that catalogues can't be matched $ for $.
NOW, the little & medium stores will scoff at the idea of selling below their cost. Of course, trhere is an exception to every rule --- all I am saying is you canNOT expect it on anything even approaching a regular basis.
I am not an expert on CANADIAN taxation although i do some tax work for Canadian expatriates.
Here in the U.S. we also save the local Sales Tax (although almost every such instance gives rise to a situation where Use tax is payable, in lieu of sales tax).
The exception to that is Internet Sales, for which there is a current moratorium, with changes looming 5 yrs in the future.
In any event, Meri, I like your attitude as a consumer !
Best,
mw
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Author: dew
Date: 2001-07-01 21:07
I'd be interested in hearing from those in North Central Texas which local dealers they find exceptional, or who will match prices.
Mars in Dallas is selling their Yamaha Custom alto sax for $4195; it can be purchased online from Europe for around $2000. Anybody willing to match?
The Brook Mays "band" instrument store (LBJ) wouldn't even get off the phone to acknowledge a customer, much less look for sheet music books. (They didn't have them anyway.) I have to go to Penders in Denton, 50 miles away, to get music books that are standard for our private teacher.
I see the plastic Ridenour clarinets being rented by Brook Mays to beginners; it's pretty shocking when these kids get to junior high and they're asked to buy R13s with Greg Smith mouthpieces....
So, if it isn't mailorder, where locally do you go? Are y'all special because you're pros? Remember, students and their parents don't get those discounts.
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Author: Daniel
Date: 2001-07-02 01:52
A few months back, i took my clarinet to get the three bladder pads that had never been replaced, replaced. Took it to a guy that i've always bought my reeds from, and originally bought my R-13 from when i was in junior high. In addition to replacing those three pads, he replaced the 4 pinky key pads as well, then gave me a half hour lecture about the poor work my repair guy (who does wonderful work) did and shamed me for taking my horns to someone in Iowa instead of staying local. That unwarranted repad set me back $125.
A month or so later i went to Iowa for Spring brea, and tok my horns to my repair guy. He replaced all those pads, and did work on my tenor sax, and checked up on my Eb and A clarinets, for under $95. Then he showed me the pads that the guy in town used, they were all too big, anda couple he forced into the cups so hard they they tore the pads. Then we talked about his photography hobby, and looked at some of his pictures of steam engines he had taken and framed on the wall of his workshop. Then he told me an interesting story about the development of the YBS-62 octave vent (let's just say, it wasn't Rousseau's design :-).
The only person in town i send any of my horns to is the flute specialist, to whom i send my Haynes flute. She owns her own private shop, which is where i bought both my flute and my custom headjoint. And my teacher uses her for most of her repairs as well. There's one guy i don't mind taking my other horns to, but only in case of emergency. If it's something that can wait a month or so, i waituntil i can send my horns to, or make a trip to, Iowa.
And as for the shop where i used buy my reeds. I now buy from IMS or WW&BW. The shop had the best prices i've ever seen on reeds, especially Vandoren. But I'm willing to pay a few cents more per box and add a little for shipping, rather than buy cheap from a rip-off.
Daniel
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