 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Shostakovich
Date: 2018-06-15 15:11
I’m thinking of getting a clarinet completely repadded. I”m mainly considering synthetics or cork, and I’m currently less interested in leather.
I am likely to ask for the Valentino master pads to be installed, but wanted gather opinions.
I came across this old thread discussing the excellent performance of Ed Myers Pads (http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=95564&t=95543).
Are Ed Myers Pads still available? Have Valentino caught up in terms of achieving a really good seal? Are there any other brands I haven’t considered that you like?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-06-15 16:28
Shostakovich,
I cannot speak to the Myers pads because I am not familiar with them. My experience with synthetics includes the black foam pads of the late Bob Scott which were quite wonderful (perfectly silent and a perfect seal), but they purportedly degraded when coming in contact with key oil.
Then there are the Kraus Omni pads which are a firm synthetic that seals amazingly, however, the largest pads (bottom four on clarinet) can be a little too hard and cause enough of a sound upon closure to be somewhat annoying.
For the past four years I have been using the Valentino Masters which seal just like cork, never degrade in quality and the large pads are soft enough to not be the least bit "noisy" when popped closed. They are also available in white and tan color.
If you have trouble with moisture build up at a tone hole though (usually the side Eb/Bb key) the synthetics don't help. They tend to intensify "water adhesion." But then this is a SMALL sacrifice and you may decide to use more traditional pad options at these trouble spots (if you have them).
................Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2018-06-15 16:39)
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2018-06-15 21:04
Been using Valentino synthetic GREEN pads for years and for the upper register cork pads both from JL Smith. These are soft cork and make very little noise.
The cork pads should last 10 to 15 years. I'm not sure about the GREEN Synthetic pads, some of my friends horns are 8 years old or so and working just fine.
With the cork pads I sometimes sand the top of the pad carefully with 2000 grit sandpaper for a very smooth finish. I also use a fine file to cut in the pad for better tuning and getting the notes to speak better if the pad hangs over too much on the tone holes a few of the keys.
The Yamaha CSVR pads are leather and seal very well. But I have an issue with the upper register. The leather is very soft compared to cork so I couldn't get that feel of the play in them when pressing down and changed them out to cork. I actually think there is more of a ring to the horn now, because the leather absorbs the sound too much. The cork just sounds better and isn't dull. People with bright sounds may like the leather pads. I don't have a bright sound.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2018-06-16 01:23
Attachment: P6030001 (1).JPG (683k)
Attachment: P6050006.JPG (677k)
I hollowed out the cork pads I used on this Jupiter bass to further vent the F, F# and open G (there's one in the G vent and also cork pads in the throat Bb vent and speaker key - the Bb pad is also hollowed out).
See attachments.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2018-06-16 01:25)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2018-06-16 12:00
I've tried pretty much all the synthetic pads mentioned here so far, except the Ed Myers, but AFAIK Myers changed a lot since that thread (2002).
There's a new company I forgot the name of that makes synthetic pads and if I remember it's by the person who originally made Ed Myers pads. I've tried those too and I can't say too much from the small sample. They seemed fine but didn't make me want to use them over other pads.
Valentinos are much better than they used to be. The main difference between the Masters and the Greenbacks is the latter are all foam and the former have a firmer smaller diameter back. They say the Greenbacks are a little softer, but I can't really feel anything significant with a tool or my finger (which is possible for softer and harder bladder or leather pads).
>> Then there are the Kraus Omni pads which are a firm synthetic that seals amazingly, however, the largest pads (bottom four on clarinet) can be a little too hard <<
They make two types and one is slightly softer. They are the same except the foam itself is softer, as opposed to the foam thickness, which also affects how hard they are, and they offer many different foam and back thicknesses too. They recommend the softer ones for the large bottom keys and IME with both types I agree.
I recently started using the new Music Center pads Chris mentioned. They have many types, generally divided by shape and material. The plastic ones are different from any other pad and you really have to try them to know how they fit. Basically a stepped pad with a very hard plastic "wrap" that is all around to the edge of the pad face.
The regular ones are similar to Greenbacks in shape. There's a very thin back material, but on the Greenbacks and Masters (and Omnis too) it's hard to tell if there's another layer at the sealing face or if it's just cut and/or treated. The Music Center pads have a layer about 1mm thick, but the face itself looks the same (the face of all of these look exactly the same for models without extra material over them).
The Omni and Music Center pads are a little flatter than the Valentinos. All are pretty flat, obviously none are as flat as ground steel, but the Omnis and MCs have slightly less curve to the face (borderline noticeable on larger sizes).
The Music Center pads have models with a synthetic bladder layer over the pad, both in regular and plastic wrap types. This might be my favourite pad now. This layer seems much better than real bladder.
They have a model with a leather layer too, but one of the reasons to use synthetic pads is to avoid animal products so defeats part of the purpose for me.
There are various pads such as Super pads and other similar ones, made of neoprene and similar materials. They vary in how soft/hard a quiet they are depending on the firmness of the material. I don't like pads that are too soft and quiet but that's an individual preference anyway. I've tried Super pads and two other brands of similar pads.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2018-06-16 14:58
If you want to make the Valentino pads flatter than they are, you can heat them up with a hairdryer and they'll flatten out and have a crisp square edge like cork pads. I used to do this with Greenbacks when I used them on oboes almost 20 years back.
They only have that profile due to the punching out process which leaves the edge rounded off (obviously it's best to cut them going through the foam first and the backing last), but they'll spring back as soon as you gently heat them.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2018-06-16 17:20
I use mostly Masters pads for professional clarinets. They are definitely firmer than the Greenback pads. I still use cork for the register pad. For the large pads I sometimes still use skin pads, or a Kraus pad (Omnipad or EZ). Ed Kraus has a few new models of Omnipads I have samples of. One has a step (like many skin pads) so it can overlap the edge of the pad cup.
Steve Ocone
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Author: shmuelyosef
Date: 2018-06-17 00:38
I was liking the MusicMedic pads in black leather, but recently the diameters have been a little more variable than they used to be. Anyone else notice that? I have used these on some professional overhauls and the owners seem happy, and have them on one of my own clarinets. They are harder than the Pisoni plain leather, and have rounded bevel that floats pretty well.
I have used the Valentino Greenbacks for some time; the quality has improved considerably and the 0.25mm sizing is useful for some British and American clarinets that are originally in English units (1/32") to get a tight fit. They seem cheap in the hand and sometimes expand during floating, but the results are generally very good and lasting. They are perfect for rentals...
I have the Masters pads in one of my clarinets (overhaul done by someone else). I like the feel and they play well. I have not used them myself, as it's a meaningful investment for my small shop to set up for a new pad type. The music store through which I used to get work and order materials closed up shop a few years back and I'm at retail prices these days...
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Author: shmuelyosef
Date: 2018-06-17 00:52
...per ChrisP
Quote:
"I hollowed out the cork pads I used on this Jupiter bass to further vent the F, F# and open G (there's one in the G vent and also cork pads in the throat Bb vent and speaker key - the Bb pad is also hollowed out)."
Looks hard to do...did you make a sanding tool to do it or is something readily available?
Why does a dead volume like that help with venting though? Seems to me that it would provide a trap unless you coated it with hard material.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2018-06-17 02:51
I used a spherical reamer to dish out the pads, then sealed the hollow with wax for a smooth finish.
I've seen a similar thing done on a Buffet S1 alto sax LH1 pad to give better venting for C (oxo|ooo - see attachment), so thought there's no harm in trying it on this (Jupiter) bass.
Tried to attach a photo bot got this message:
"You cannot attach anything to this message. Either you are not the author of the message or the maximum number of attachments have been attached."
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2018-06-17 03:03)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2018-06-18 10:38
BTW as far as seal, every good pad should seal fine. I've tested many by using a plastic "tone hole" (plastic pipe with an accurate flat end) connected to a magnehelic. Some poor quality pads are porous, and from good quality pads there is the occasional defective/porous one but it's rare (bladder or leather).
Sometimes a pad won't seal at first when checking that way, because it is unevenly supported at its back. Sometimes a pad will seem fine in the test, but then won't seal easily over a tone hole, but then the problem is an uneven or chipped tone hole.
Post Edited (2018-06-18 10:50)
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2018-06-18 19:55
Had good luck with Valentino Masters. They seem to seat a little easier for me than Greenbacks, but I might have just had a bad day with the Greenbacks. S&S uses "Quartz Resonance" pads (http://www.resonanzoptimierung.de/ResoProdukte/ProdukteQRP.html) if you don't request leather or gore-tex, and at least one German oboe shop uses them as well, but I don't think they're easily obtainable here.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-06-18 21:37
As far as "seating" goes, the Omnis should be the best. They feature a plastic hemisphere on the back, making seating a breeze!
............Paul Aviles
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2018-06-20 10:09
Chris P - Nice work with reaming out the center on the corks!! Great ideas too with the hair dryer! I'll have to try it. This will save on my throw away money! If pads aren't flat I usually just chuck them.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: John G.
Date: 2018-06-30 23:36
Hey Chris.....
May I ask where you purchased the spherical reamer(s)? Sounds like something I'd have a use for!
Thanks!
John
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2018-07-01 11:22
>> JL Smith makes Black Valentino Pads - they are fantastic. <<
...and they are completely different from the other colours of Valentino pads... in colour.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2018-07-01 15:33
John - I suspect the spherical reamers were from Boehm or a similar instrument repair supplier.
There's a set of four different sizes mounted in wooden handles, but the reamers can be pulled out easily enough so you can mount them in a bench motor chuck.
I normally use them for countersinking the tops of toneholes to thin the crown after levelling them and they work great on non-ferrous metals too.
They look similar to this with lots of cutting edges on them, but have an integral shaft without the bolt:
https://www.reamer.com.ua/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Milling-cutters-for-boring-cylindrical-channels-set.jpg
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: John G.
Date: 2018-07-01 19:49
Chris P wrote:
> John - I suspect the spherical reamers were from Boehm or a
> similar instrument repair supplier.
>
> There's a set of four different sizes mounted in wooden
> handles, but the reamers can be pulled out easily enough so you
> can mount them in a bench motor chuck.
>
> I normally use them for countersinking the tops of toneholes to
> thin the crown after levelling them and they work great on
> non-ferrous metals too.
>
>
> They look similar to this with lots of cutting edges on them,
> but have an integral shaft without the bolt:
>
> https://www.reamer.com.ua/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Milling-cutters-for-boring-cylindrical-channels-set.jpg
>
Chris, thanks! I found these from JLSmith: http://www.jlsmithco.com/1-4-ball-interior-tone-hole-dresser-w-handle
Also found similar stuff on eBay, but getting the proper/appropriate sizes for instrument related purposes is the hard part!
Thanks again!
John
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2018-07-01 20:19
http://www.jlsmithco.com/1-4-ball-interior-tone-hole-dresser-w-handle
Those should work, but they have a straight edge at the back of them so you'll have to use them straight on to make a hemispherical hollow which will leave a bump right in the centre of it.
The ones I have are completely spherical so I can use them side on which leaves the inside of the hollow in the pad completely smooth instead of leaving a bump in the middle. But you should be able to work around that minor thing by moving the pad around as you're cutting into it and using more than the one size.
But you'll still have a set for doing all manner of tonehole work which is where they pay for themselves - not just clarinets, but also toneholes on soprano saxes and metal clarinets after levelling them as well as lightly countersinking/deburring any drilled holes in any other material besides steel. They can be resharpened easily and cleaned out by using a brass brush.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: John G.
Date: 2018-07-02 08:46
I think it will most likely do the job with some minor "dressing".
Thanks for your help, Chris!
John
Post Edited (2018-07-02 08:47)
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