 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: kj2008
Date: 2018-06-19 00:13
For the first time, I ran into a problem the air being blocked (and no sound, of course) when I play G5 note, moving from F5 last 3 days and is still on going issue. All other notes are O.K. to play in tune. So far, only when I move from F5 to G5. This is more like off and on situation. I used two other reeds but got the same result (so, I kind of ruled out it as reed problem) Is this something to do with instrument (Buffet E3) problem in any chance? I have been practicing with this for about 3 years. Any helpful input would be greatly appreciated.
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2018-06-19 02:16
Maybe a problem with the linkage between sections. and the rh rings failing to raise when you release them? Is the topmost pad of the rh section, the one just above the rh index finger, ok?
Or, maybe you are doing something odd at that transition. If the air is actually being blocked so it's not going into the clarinet, and it's not a reed problem, then you are probably doing it unconsciously.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2018-06-19 02:54
You say only G5 after F5. What about G#5, A5 and above?
My first (and right now only) thought is that you're uncovering a hole somewhere in your left hand when you let go of the RH index finger. But I don't know why you would suddenly be doing that, so it seems unlikely.
Any open pad that shouldn't be open in the upper section should disable everything from wherever it is located on down.
A loose pad in the cup above RH index would interfere with producing G5 and maybe G#5, but I'm not sure how it would completely stop the sound. Could the bridge keys be binding when you release RH index finger so the pad in that top cup is still blocking the tone hole?
Karl
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Author: kj2008
Date: 2018-06-19 05:26
Thank you very much for the possible clues from both of you.
At tomorrow's practice time, I will check on those suggestions.
To kdk - did you mean by moving G#5 to A5? I don't think I have noticed it but I will check again tomorrow.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2018-06-19 06:25
I was just asking what happens above G5. Do notes higher than G5 play normally?
Karl
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Author: kj2008
Date: 2018-06-19 18:14
Yes, notes higher than G5 have no problem.
Not sure whether this could be related or even left over issue, earlier last week before I noticed the problem with G5, many notes were out of tunes and I saw a little screw (on long supporting bar) in the middle of the clarinet was popped up and causing the one of thin tension needle out of position and I pushed it back to the right position and I tighten back the screw and all notes worked fine until I encounter the G5 note problem. By the way, G5 note itself is working fine. It stops only when I transition from F5 to G5.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2018-06-19 22:55
kj2008 wrote:
> Yes, notes higher than G5 have no problem.
> ... I saw a little screw (on long
> supporting bar) in the middle of the clarinet was popped up and
> causing the one of thin tension needle out of position and I
> pushed it back to the right position and I tighten back the
> screw...
> By the way, G5 note itself is working fine. It stops
> only when I transition from F5 to G5.
Were the screw and spring on the lower section - holding the set of rings under RH 1, 2 and 3? If so (assuming the spring is actually on the correct side of the hook), maybe the rings are binding and not coming up fast enough, interfering with G5 when you release the F (RH index finger) ring, but then the problem rights itself when the ring eventually comes all the way up. This could explain why the screw had backed out in the first place. You may have tightened to screw far enough to cause it to bind.
Try backing the screw out just until the rings move freely. If that solves the problem, put a drop of oil on each end of the sleeve. If that works, you can either leave it that way and watch to see that the screw doesn't back itself out again, or (IMO, preferably) take it to a good repairman and have the fit adjusted between the sleeve and the screw so it *can* be tightened firmly without binding.
Karl
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Author: kj2008
Date: 2018-06-20 05:24
Karl - Thanks for your detailed input and I get and agree what you suggested. I did a little play with the screw (in the lower section). When I tighten it all the way, the ring hole closed completely and won't open, and after observing it, I did move the screw backward as the closed hole opens up more and more. Now, I feel it has a little bit improvement. I get the stuck less often (30% of time? but still get it). I also noticed from this morning's practice, D5# to G5 also gets stuck in addition to F5 to G5. I guess I have to take the instrument to a repair shop to make it work completely error free.
Again, thanks for sharing your insight on this problem.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2018-06-20 05:42
Kindly excuse my ignorance here, but what fingering are you using?
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: kj2008
Date: 2018-06-20 19:13
Attachment: fingering page 2.pdf (862k)
For the subject notes that I am having troubles: D5# --> G5 & F5 -> G5, I used the fingerings shown as on the attached fingering chart.
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Author: kj2008
Date: 2018-06-24 08:36
I took it to a local repair shop (that was decent and well known in the area), thinking they would know and fix the problem fairly quickly. I left the equipment for 2 days for the repair. The shop also suggested to do the 'regulation' work since I have not had it done for last 2+ years. When I got the equipment back and test play (even though the shop claimed it was fixed), I encountered the exact same problems. Actually, things even got worse by adding another problem. Now, the low B does not stay in tune (getting sharper and goes out of tune) for long tone.
I plan to take it back to the shop next week. In the mean time, could anyone out in the forum pass any/some suggestions that I can try?
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Author: kj2008
Date: 2018-06-28 22:16
The shop told me that there's nothing wrong with my equipment. According to their shop tech, their own testing came out o.k. with their own mouthpiece and ligature & reed (as they claimed). When I tested at the store with my own mouthpiece & ligature (M13 Lyre, Rovner Dark, Vandoren 56 3.5) after they handed it back to me, it seemed to improve a bit but the problem was still there. The shop tech suggested to further lower the ligature and have more mouth to the mouthpiece than I have been doing. Up till now before I took my equipment to the shop, the way I played was just fine and I didn't quite understand why the tech suggested to make those changes.
Now, come to think of all fixes and/or suggestions from the shop, I start to wonder whether my ligature has gone bad (I had this for 21/2 years). The questions I have to the forum are: 1) the ligature goes bad suddenly?, 2) bad ligature could choke the sound but only when note transitions one to another? When I do long tone practice, each individual note including affected notes are all come out O.K.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2018-06-29 01:05
kj2008 wrote:
> ... after they
> handed it back to me, it seemed to improve a bit but the
> problem was still there. The shop tech suggested to further
> lower the ligature and have more mouth to the mouthpiece than I
> have been doing. Up till now before I took my equipment to the
> shop, the way I played was just fine and I didn't quite
> understand why the tech suggested to make those changes.
>
Did the tech have any reasonable sounding explanation of why moving from one specific note (F5) to another (G5) would be affected by a ligature or by your embouchure placement on the reed? It seems like either of those would affect more notes and would affect them individually, not just moving from one to the other.
In the absence of a binding bridge key or other mechanical problem on the instrument, I can imagine two more possible causes for this specific problem that are player-related: (a) you've possibly developed a habit of moving your left hand when you move your right hand to release the F5/Bb3 ring, uncovering one of the tone holes on the upper section as a result or (maybe more likely (b) your RH index finger is pressing on the ring at an angle that is pushing the ring sideways against the tone hole chimney and causing it to bind - someone else (e.g. the shop tech) who presses more vertically on the ring may not cause this. I've seen this happen with students whose fingers tended to lie flat instead of rounded on the holes.
A 2-1/2 year old ligature is almost like new. A new one certainly won't hurt anything, but I for one don't see how a ligature could have so specific a bad effect. I think the tech just doesn't know what the problem is and is grasping at straws.
Karl
Post Edited (2018-06-29 01:06)
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Author: kj2008
Date: 2018-06-29 03:02
Karl - thanks for your input on the ligature. I love my inexpensive Rovner Dark ligature and it seems to be working really good for me all along. I will discard ligature as possible cause for good. Your point of (a) and (b) are interesting. I will check them closely. At this time (a) may not be the problem but (b) is possible since some times I've noticed my fingering gets flat instead of rounded and curvy. I will watch this on my next practice. BTW, what/where is hole chimney you are referring to? I never heard of that term 'tone hole chimney' before.
Thanks.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2018-06-29 03:58
kj2008 wrote:
> BTW, what/where is hole
> chimney you are referring to? I never heard of that term 'tone
> hole chimney' before.
It's the raised area immediately around the tone hole. The ring fits over (around) it into an area that's cut out (recessed) around the chimney. Especially if the rings are even slightly misaligned, pressing them outward with a flattened finger can force part of the ring against the chimney (raised portion) and cause it to bind on the wood.
Check carefully with the instrument (and your hands) in normal playing position and see if the ring consistently comes up smoothly as you lift your finger. If it seems to catch at all, either the ring is binding as I've described, or the screw is binding inside the sleeve, or the bridge keys are binding on each other, the last two of which the tech seems to have ruled out by saying the instrument is working correctly.
Something like this can be very frustrating.
Karl
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2018-06-29 09:26
If it happens when you move from F or Eb to G, it sounds like it probably happens when you move from a lower section note to G by raising the three ring key.
It might be difficult to find the issue without having the clarinet and you there and hearing and seeing it happening.
- Maybe you are raising/moving the left hand finger from the lowest tone hole (or any finger) when raising the right hand fingers from the ring keys. It's possible that you only do this when moving to G. For example what happens if you play F to Ab or F to A? Or Eb to Ab or A?
- It sometimes happens that the linkage of the thumb F to first finger F# touches and raises one or two of the trill keys. It can be just enough to depend on the amount of force you use. If this happens, then the problem is worst for C6 and B5, getting better the lower you move, however it's possible that only when you use all of your left hand fingers (e.g. for G) you press slightly harder to raise a trill key. Slim chance of this but worth mentioning.
- Many other possibilities of something in your fingers and/or your embouchure changing when releasing the grip from the right hand, with support only by the left hand. It might happen with G if it is only happening when you have the third tone hole covered (somehow making you move your fingers differently).
- If the three ring key is binding, it might not open enough when you release it. If it is opening just a little it could cause what you describe. It might be binding just enough so it only opens fully sometimes, and/or when releasing the D/A key (left hand) the added spring force does make it open (in the latter case moving to G, G#, A and Bb could have the problem, as opposed to only G). It could be binding in a way that something in the way you press and/or release the key is causing it.
- The same "binding" could happen from a problem in the bridge linkage. The two arms can sometimes have friction at one of the edges, as opposed to only top and bottom like they should have. It might also be just enough so it only happens sometimes, or only pressing the keys a certain way causes it.
Just a few possibilities.
You can try rotating the section slightly and see if it is better or worse (try both directions).
Try opening the middle joint a little and see if it better or worse (or the same).
Check if raising your right hand finger(s) fast or slowly affects this in any way.
You say it happens sometimes. If it is happening, does it keep happening until you play again another time (e.g. disassemble and reassemble the clarinet)? Or can it happen one moment and a second later it's fine?
If you have a webcam I can try to see if I can help you find the problem through Skype or something like that.
Post Edited (2018-06-29 20:15)
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Author: kj2008
Date: 2018-06-29 18:26
Clarnibass - Wow. Thank you so much for your vast set of input/suggestions. I will check on each of those at my next practice session.
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Author: kj2008
Date: 2018-06-30 00:05
Here's what I found from my earlier practice:
1. as Karl suggested, I paid closer attention on fingerings on G5 (making sure closed all 3 holes) and F5 (not flatten, but round), and it definitely helped and worked. Good thing. but I just wonder why it worked in the past and all of sudden it failed (build a bad habit all of sudden).
2. I also found by accident how to chock the sound of G5 - by touching/pushing side C# key (above 3rd left hole) while closing 1st, 2nd, 3rd holes for G5. To avoid this, I have to position my left fingers more like horizontally. Again, why all of sudden, I have to make such a shift of my fingering to avoid such chocking. Has C# key been moved somehow downward by accident (I don't see any physical mechanism for such move when I inspect the key). Or, did my finger for 3 hole got larger all of sudden to touch the C# key? ;-) a bit of frustrating observation.
3. As long as I am conscious and following to make sure things mentioned on 1. & 2. while I am playing, it may have resolved the problem.
To clarnibass - "play F to Ab or F to A? Or Eb to Ab or A?" Yes, they are all working fine when I tried. Also, "(e.g. disassemble and reassemble the clarinet)? Or can it happen one moment and a second later it's fine?" no difference between disassemble and reassemble, and ye,s it happened time to time.
To both Karl & Clarnibass, thanks for spending time to send your insight on this problem and I very much appreciate your extra effort.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2018-06-30 00:35
Destructive habits don't appear all of a sudden. They build gradually, but you may get away with them for a long time before you reach a point when the problem becomes serious enough to have a noticeable effect.
Karl
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2018-06-30 11:35
It's possible the C#/G# (or any) key bent without you noticing and unless it was against something sharp, etc. there won't really be a mark on the key. Regardless it might be possible to move the C#/G# key a little to make it work better for you.
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Author: kj2008
Date: 2018-06-30 23:12
When I took the equipment to the shop for the original problems, they recommended "regulation work" since the equipment was not serviced for more than 2 years. I assume if the regulation work was performed properly, possible key bent issue could be ruled out. Also, I was told that side C# key was modified so that my 3rd finger won't touch/interfere the key (but looking at the key afterward, I did not notice any change).
For now, with careful fingerings (no flatten, not touching C# key when closing upper 3rd hole) as Karl suggested, I have fairly good success rate for the problems (not completely out of the wood, though).
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2018-07-02 08:50
>> I assume if the regulation work was performed properly, possible key bent issue could be ruled out. Also, I was told that side C# key was modified so that my 3rd finger won't touch/interfere the key (but looking at the key afterward, I did not notice any change). <<
Some of the keys don't really have one good position, but can be moved slightly to fit the player best. The C#/G# key is one of those. The original position might be bad for you. I meant that it doesn't have to be bent for this to be an issue. Adjusting it without you there playing it in front of them is half guessing, which might help or not. It's not definite that it's possible to move it to a better position but it might be (moving it farther away from the third finger could mean it's too far from your pinky to be comfortable, it's something to try).
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2018-07-02 09:29
The most annoying aspect of this problem is that it could almost certainly be fixed in 5 minutes if the OP had face-to-face access to any half-decent tech.
Tony F.
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Author: kj2008
Date: 2018-07-02 19:12
Tony - Thanks for your input.
Can you tell me what you meant by ‘OP’?
I demonstrated the problem to the tech and his supervisor at the repair shop.
They couldn’t give a definite answer but insisted nothing wrong with the equipment and was told it’s more like due to my embouchure and fingerings (which have been the same for last 2 years).
At this time, I take Karl's earlier input (building a bad habit for some time and then it finally reached the failure point) and see what happens (I start to look at the mirror more closely for my fingerings).
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2018-07-02 20:51
OP is Original Poster.
Try this. Play the clarinet while standing in front of a large mirror. When the problem occurs, immediately freeze in position. The, without changing your hand position, analyse each finger position in turn, You're looking for a finger that is touching something that it should not or a finger that is not covering something that it should.
Try playing the offending notes, and while doing so slightly roll the fingers around one by one. Can you induce the problem while doing so?
You're looking for a key that is lightly touched by the rolling finger. If you have access to another instrument, dos the problem occur on it?
I'm pretty well certain that this area is where your problem lies.
Tony F.
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Author: kj2008
Date: 2018-07-04 20:07
I am grateful of getting all the helpful input/suggestions from the forum members on the subject issue. For the person like me, who is DIY learner without a (face to face) teacher and spend time & enjoy with the instrument as a hobby, this forum is really a great source of troubleshooting problems (also getting interesting, resourceful information). All things I received on this subject through the forum, I am sure that not one teacher, even if I had one, would know all the variations.
I am having real good progress of resolving the problem (so far). Being conscious and mindful when I hit the subject notes, so far I could avoid the problem.
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Author: kj2008
Date: 2018-07-18 03:23
While I've gotten many good feedback from forum members, I would like throw one more question on the subject.
I could recreate the problem of sound being blocked by touching (inadvertently) the key above upper 3rd hole. And while looking at the mirror when this happens, I also notice that my finger was thick enough easily touching the key.
Well, I don't think my finger has gotten big all of sudden. And, also, I've never had a problem producing G5 for a long time until this problem started happening recently.
The question is: Is sound being blocked by merely (slightly) touching the key from the edge of my finger is the only thing that causes the problem? Nothing wrong with the equipment? I just wonder why that did not happen in the past (the way I see it through the mirror, it would have happened in the past many many times). Karl mentioned about accumulation of bad habit to the point of the complete failure in earlier post and I was very conscious of the particular fingering but it still happens. The repair shop person told me there's nothing wrong with the equipment.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2018-07-18 05:15
kj2008, at this point there are only two ways you're going to get a solution to this problem. Either (a) you'll get lucky one day and find a cause in something your fingers are doing, something you can do or not do deliberately or (b) you'll get someone who knows how to play clarinet to watch you and perhaps see the cause. This is something that should take an experienced teacher watching you in person 5 or so minutes to fix. Then you can spend the rest of an hour's lesson discussing other clarinet problems and go on your way.
I'm not being critical. It's just that this kind of problem shouldn't need a month of searching for a solution or, at least, a cause that you can work on avoiding.
Lessons with good teachers don't have to be - shouldn't be - lifetime commitments. You don't need weekly lessons to find a cause of so specific a problem as this. But all the long distance guessing combined with all of your own promising but apparently unproductive solutions have left you, evidently, with the same problem after a whole month.
Of course, not all repair people are equally thorough. It's still possible there's something in the mechanism that this repair person doesn't see, doesn't feel when he plays and, therefore, can't fix. And sometimes an individual person's physical characteristics - e.g. thick or short fingers - can cause difficulties that can be compensated for by tweaks in the key work by a skilled tech or player. A good teacher could act as a second opinion there as well.
Karl
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2018-07-20 07:16
Do you have fat fingers? Wonder if you are hitting the fork key. Play in front of a mirror. I had to bend this key to fit my hands.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2018-07-20 19:09
The question is: Is sound being blocked by merely (slightly) touching the key from the edge of my finger ?
Yes, it most certainly can be. It only takes the slightest pressure on that key (I assume you mean the A key). I have large hands and fingers, and I frequently experience this problem, but not on my own clarinets. On mine I have reshaped this key to allow room for my over-large fingers.
Tony F.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2018-07-20 19:39
>> ...by touching (inadvertently) the key above upper 3rd hole. <<
>> I assume you mean the A key <<
I thought he meant the 3rd hole i.e. the lowest one you close to play C/G, and the key above it is the banana Eb/Bb key. I guess he could have meant the top tone hole, being the 3rd from the bottom, then the key would be the A key.
By the way I just had someone here who brought his clarinet for a general check. The only specific problem he mentioned is that it is sometimes "blocked" when he plays a certain song in C, but not in D (he plays that song in those two keys). I watched him play it and it took about a minute to figure out he was accidentally opening the B/F# banana key. It was so little, it really looked like he was only touching it from the side, but it was barely opening too.
I've seen the same thing happen for others with the C#/G# key and the top banana Eb/Bb key.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2018-07-21 04:04
Clarnibass,
On re-reading the post I think you're probably right. The answer is still the same though, the merest brush against the banana keys will stop the instrument dead. On my instruments these keys are formed to avoid this. On an earlier post on this thread I suggested that the OP try rolling his fingers around one by one to see if the note could be stopped. This is what this check was for. Numerous posters have advised kj2008 to find a teacher and have them advise on the solution. There is a reason for this, it is the best solution. This problem could have been dealt with weeks ago had this course been followed.
Tony F.
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Author: kj2008
Date: 2018-07-21 19:06
Thank you so much for all the valuable input for this particular problem.
I love the word 'banana key'. This eliminates key confusion once for all.
Once I figured what causing the block (merely touching the key inadvertently), I modified fingering (actually going back to the way before - more like 4 o'clock position instead of close to horizontal - apparently I built this bad habit some time ago after last few lessons I had till January this year since no teachers mentioned or questioned about my fingerings then. For last few days of practice, I no longer ran into this problem.
I also plan to have the key modified on my next visit to the repair shop so that I will never have this problem in the future.
I also like this forum for gaining some insight of various interesting subject since I am a DIY hobby learner.
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