 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: m1964
Date: 2018-06-12 07:19
Hi,
I was wondering if anyone can tell me how older R13s (from 1960s-1970s) compare to the R13s produced around year 2000.
I currently play E12 that is around 10-12 y. old, and I am looking for a better clarinet but cannot afford to buy new so I am looking for a used R13 on ebay and Craigslist.
I have read some post comparing different years but have not seen anything about 15-20 y. old R13s.
I do like adjustable thumb rest on new buffets and the keys on my E12 feel comfortable to me.
I did try an old R13 from 1950s and noted the the 4 keys for the right pinky were lower and not as easy to reach as on my E12.
Any help is appreciated.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2018-06-12 21:23
The most fabulous R13 I've ever played was a 147XXX serial number. It was owned by a client of mine and has since been sold to one of his friends in Tucson. There are others that are very good from the era and the good news is they can be had for much less money generally. Keep in mind that most will not be in top condition and will require some restoration.
jbutler
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2018-06-12 22:42
They were wonderful instruments for their time and most would be classified as at least "good" if not better even today, assuming they were maintained reasonably well. Many sell for less than a new E12 and much less than a new "pro" level instrument of any brand. You can always have a Buffet adjustable thumb rest installed to replace the original fixed one.
As far as the ergonomic comfort of the key layout is concerned, that's an individual choice. You'd have to actually try an instrument to determine if the keys are comfortable. For example, on my R13 from the period the RH pinky keys are set at a right angle to the instrument's body. (One of the changes that were made on the Selmer 10G, which was modeled on a Moennig-modified R13, was that those keys were angled upward to make the player's reach to them a little shorter).
Karl
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: m1964
Date: 2018-06-13 08:14
Hi jbutler,
Thanks for your reply- that is the problem when buying off ebay or CL- you cannot see or try the instrument.
Also, I an not able to find any direct comparisons between older R13s and newer ones. Even if it would be a subjective opinion of the person playing the instruments I still would like to see such comparison.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: m1964
Date: 2018-06-13 08:33
"They were wonderful instruments for their time and most would be classified as at least "good" if not better even today, assuming they were maintained reasonably well. Many sell for less than a new E12 and much less than a new "pro" level instrument of any brand. You can always have a Buffet adjustable thumb rest installed to replace the original fixed one.
As far as the ergonomic comfort of the key layout is concerned, that's an individual choice. You'd have to actually try an instrument to determine if the keys are comfortable. For example, on my R13 from the period the RH pinky keys are set at a right angle to the instrument's body. (One of the changes that were made on the Selmer 10G, which was modeled on a Moennig-modified R13, was that those keys were angled upward to make the player's reach to them a little shorter).
Karl"
Hi Karl,
Thanks a lot for replying to my post.
As I mentioned in the post above, it is difficult to see the exact condition of the clarinet when buying the instrument from eBay or CL.
But, in fact, when I tried the older R13 from 1970, I noted that the Rt. pinky keys were lower comparing to my newer E12, and were more difficult to reach (I am pretty sure I would be able to adapt if I played that R13 a little longer).
I also would hesitate to install an adjustable thumb rest if it would require drilling new holes…but again, I may be able to adjust to the existing thumb rest.
The things I want to know are:
1. Can I expect the sound/tone quality of older R13 to be better that my E12?
2. Is the intonation of the older R13s better or worse comparing to the recent Buffets (esp. comparing to E11-12 models)?
3. How does the keywork of the older Buffets stand the time? Do the screw holes need to be re-surfaced? Springs replaced? Etc…
Thanks a lot for trying to help
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2018-06-13 14:05
This is a hard one. I've had 16 Buffets from the 1960's through 2016. Then I got mad at Buffet. The double case was bending a key and they wouldn't give me a new case even though the case was new.
So I spent 8 months looking around, buying and selling old and new Buffets and testing other horns. Selmers to expensive reformed German horns.
Long story short a friend with the Chicago Symphony put me in touch with Yamaha who happens to be about 45 miles down the road from me and after a few months I went there and tested different lines of horns. The CSVR was amazing. I warmed up on a Buffet then played on their CSVR's and it was a new world of amazement. Unlike Buffet, every horn played out of the box. I walked out with a set of horns and became a Yamaha Artist. I only tested 3 Bb clarinets and 2 A clarinets. I could have played them that night if there was a concert. With Buffet you would have to pay $1000 to have a repairman get rid of the leaks and set up the horn for you and maybe 15 days later you'd get it back.
The sound is slightly different. For example Selmer's don't sound like Buffet's. But after a few weeks, a mouthpiece facing adjustment I think I sound a lot better. Just finished a tour and all of the concerts were Standing Ovations. Even a player with the National Sym said I sounded better than the late Loren Kitt, but who cares, Loren was a friend and he played on the CSVR's too.
They recently came out with a slightly bigger bore so I will be heading down there in a few weeks, probably switching up to the larger bore. Blow into one and see what you think. One major difference is you can attack the upper register without fear. On Buffet's often there was some fear when you went for the high F would you hit the F or would it become A. Nope not with the Yamaha's. That fear is long gone.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2018-06-14 23:46
Get in touch with Chester Rowell aka chetclarinet on the famous auction site. He usually has some used R13's for sale.
jbutler
Post Edited (2018-06-15 04:37)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: m1964
Date: 2018-06-15 01:58
jbutler wrote:
> Get in touch with Chester Rowell aka chetclarinet on ebay. He
> usually has some used R13's for sale.
> jbutler
>
Thanks,
I checked- looks like he is not listing any R13s now.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: m1964
Date: 2018-06-15 02:01
Bob,
Thanks for your reply- if I understood you correctly, Yamaha just started making instruments w/ ;larger bore, so this clarinets probably cannot be bought used.
See, I am looking for a bargain (if it exists).
Thanks anyway- something new to consider.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2018-06-15 02:14
Just be aware that people sometimes sell items on that austion site that they would not be entirely happy selling to someone they know.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2018-06-15 02:51
I know Chester has two for sale right now. He may not be listing them at auction. jbutler
Post Edited (2018-06-15 04:37)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2018-06-15 08:06
m1964 - Hi! Yes the bore is a shade bigger on the new CSVR-ASP models. I'm sure about these with the A and Bb clarinets, The Bb is called the CSVR-ASP. They call it a CSVR-ASP I believe, listed at $8000. The CSVRA-ASP is listed at $9000. Remember that retailers will discount these prices. Don't worry.
Hope this helps. But remember the CSVR's are still a great deal. Costing way less than $3000 new for these beasts. I've said this before. The A clarinet is by far the best A clarinet I've ever played on. It is so free blowing. It's magical. It feels like any Bb clarinet, maybe better, because it plays so well in tune. Shoot so many top symphony players around the world are playing on the CSVR's. I promise you this. You will never lose an audition playing on these horns if you are prepared musically. You will beat out all of the players with $20,000 horns and $2000 mouthpieces.
I think the CSVR-ASP might have something to do with the SEV bore, another model they make. A higher end more expensive clarinet. It's not inexpensive. So the Bb is $8000 the A is $9000 for the CSV-ASP models. Retailers will drop the cost a bit.
Frankly, I am NOT into larger bores as I've stated many times, but when I go to Buena Park I will play it with a very open mind. I love the testing room. This testing room was built by sound engineers and it's like playing on the stage on my favorite hall, which is Severance Hall in Cleveland, because you can hear everything, overtones, the works. The ring and ping of the mouthpiece and the horns. I'd love to record there. Maybe I can one day. I'll have to ask them. A perfect size room for trios to quintets. Anything more may effect the acccaustics.
So this is the latest from my buddies at Yamaha. I look at it this way. If they invited me to test these horns they must be pretty happy with them. I don't get called in very often, so I'm playing a lot right now, 5 and 6 hours a day, making sure I can feel everything and hear everything. I'm going down there in 2 weeks or so. So when I play I want them to hear their horns at my highest level of achievement. They've recorded me in the past so if they want to record me well I'll be ready.
Are they worth a $5000 difference is cost per horn and more? I'll let you know. Readers that follow me know that I hate wasting money. I won't ever buy a set of horns that cost $20,000 when I can buy a set of Yamaha's for under $5000 and sound just great or better than anyone playing $20,000 horns.
You can see the horns here - https://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical_instruments/winds/clarinets/ycl-csvr-asp/index.html
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2018-06-15 08:32
As a comment for not answering your question, no Yamaha has been making horns for awhile, mainly student horns. But the last 10 years or so they've become more popular and even more popular with the CSVR's, the last 2 or 3 years. Once perhaps considered instruments for beginners or what I like to call toys, they are now beasts. They've done their homework.
Here is something interesting, which very few people know about. I happen to know about it because I'm one of their many Artists. Before they release a new model to the world or to the USA, the clarinets pro clarinets have been tested in Japan for 5 to 10 years. During this time a ton of research and development is being done. So when the horns hit the USA now they are really great horns.
When you go buy a Yamaha CSVR chances are you only have to play one and you can play a concert that night. Quality Control is that good. Sure some slip by that don't make the grade, but Yamaha will honor this and give you another new horn.
Buffet owned the market not too long ago. Every symphony player used Buffets. It's slowly changing. Will Buffet survive? I'm not sure. After my experience with the president of Buffet in Florida I don't care. 
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Episkey
Date: 2018-06-18 08:03
In my humble opinion the golden era buffets were indeed better than the horns made today.
However, I would add that since the recession the quality in products from Buffet have tremendously decreased.
To answer the OP's question in more detail, I would say the older horns had more resonance than modern horns. That being said I've played a small handful of modern horns (especially from the 90s) that have a great deal of resonance.
Yamaha may be fine and dandy for a few people. But nothing I've played has came close to my Buffets. And I've tried everything.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2018-06-20 10:44
There's no perfect horn for everyone I suppose. Yamaha's are better than fine for more than a just few people as Episkey suggested.
The Selmer's are VERY good and I came close to buying a set of the Signatures. No the Selmer's and Yamaha's nor any other instrument company has a clarinet that sounds like a Buffet. But this could be a really good thing. I also came very close to buying a set of handmade horns from Guy Chadash, which play very much like the 1960's old Buffets. But when playing them I was not comfortable. They are a work of art for sure. But the Yamaha's just fit me. We have to remember, money isn't a problem for me. The Yamaha's just fit. The best way to describe these horns is they are part of my body. When I play them I have no fear. The horns are an extension of your brain and your musical talent so they have to add to your creative abilities. If you fear some notes, if some notes are dead, if the mouthpiece plays out of tune and your horn does too well keep looking.
So when people test out horns forget about the money. Make sure the horns, reeds and mouthpieces are part of your body. If you don't feel good when playing them and some of the notes have a fear factor to them don't buy the horns or the mouthpieces. Each and every note should feel great. If not don't buy the horn nor the mouthpieces. It's not a match for you.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: LGS316217
Date: 2018-06-20 18:33
I have a love affair with the older Buffets. I play a 1950's pre-R13. I have heard much about even new Buffets requiring a lot of setup, not "plug and play." You def have to expect to have a lot of adjustments made to any older horn. But the cost of the overhaul plus buying the instrument in the first place is still very cost effective, compared to buying a quality new instrument. I have learned much from my time spent with my clarinet. First thing I've learned is patience. From wear, history of sketchy repairs, and just age, expect the hardware to need work. But a skilled tech specializing in vintage instruments really can restore the hardware to like-new status. Expect also some cracks, tone-hole wear, and tenon wear. As long as the cracks and other issues are relatively minor and won't create unsolvable tuning issues, a good tech can work with them. My 1953 Buffet feels, looks, and sounds rich and solid in a way I just don't find with newer instruments. I am used to the fact that it needs extra care and feeding. My current project is replacing the case. I love the old pochette it came with because it fits in any gig bag or laptop bag, but I know it doesn't protect well from temperature changes and I worry about the latches or handle suddenly giving way. I have been quite frustrated with the paucity of Buffet replacement cases for a decent price. Best advice I can give is, try to locate a vintage clarinet local to you; if you must deal with eBay, only go with a seller that has a reasonable return policy, so you can get the instrument evaluated by a good tech and can send it back if it turns out not to be worth what you paid. Having a local tech that is good with and likes to work with vintage instruments is important. Check out Jeremy Soule, the Vintage Clarinet Doctor. He has great advice on the older instruments, he restores them, and he may have one that fits your needs for sale.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Episkey
Date: 2018-06-21 00:52
I have no doubt that the Yamaha. Selmer Paris, (full in any brand here) clarinets are very popular.
I totally agree with Bob here, the horns you purchase should feel like an extension of your body.
Any comment on the loss of resonance one may experience when trying Yamaha clarinets?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: jthole
Date: 2018-06-21 23:31
I have two older ones, a BC20 from 1962 and a R13 from 1972. My 1972 is a very good instrument (mind; I am an amateur, with amateur ambitions). I haven't played a modern Buffet yet that would make me want to trade it in for.
OTOH, last year I tried a Selmer Privilege, and I was blown away. Much to my own surprise, since I didn't like the previous Selmers I tried too much really. But then again, that particular instrument wasn't for sale, and the next Privilege might play completely different.
Anyway, my experience is that I like my vintage Buffets better than the modern ones I tried (including the "Vintage"), but that it's definitely worth looking at other brands too.
Post Edited (2018-06-21 23:31)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2018-06-22 01:35
Episkey I did feel resonance changes. A very good question. Surely a horn to try one out.
As noted in past posts I had to make a mouthpiece facing adjustment. Went from a 1.03 to about a 1.06 or so. Then learn how to blow into a more open mouthpiece as a double lip player. The facing went from a 36 to a 34 using a 0.0015" shim, which is a lot. So about 2 months of long tones and I was very happy I made the change. The first few days I wasn't sure. But then I got that special sound I was looking for after about a week, but I wasn't totally happy until I made the mouthpiece facing change.
For me these horns are easier to play than the Buffets, but sound a lot like the Selmer's and 1/2 the cost. I've always liked the freedom of Selmer's. A shade more open feel, but still have a very nice sound.
I'm not a supporter of Buffet anymore. Played on them for 45 years. So switching was something I didn't think I'd ever do. Felt guilty actually. I totally understand the loyalty of Buffet players. I was one of them. The Selmer's and Yamaha's are something to look at before buying a Buffet. Just test out the field a bit. The Selmer Recital is not the horn for most player. Too heavy and dark.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Episkey
Date: 2018-06-22 02:03
Yeah I felt that as well on the Yamahas. I only tried out 2 at the Florida exhibition.
Did you have to adjust the exit bore or exit taper on your mouthpieces to accommodate the change?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2018-06-22 09:44
Episkey - Wow you are smart. No, I didn't have to make a bore adjustment to my mouthpiece. I did change barrels as noted before in past posts and Yamaha made one for me. So they are a full service company.
Such as the throat of the Rico mouthpieces where the chamber and bore meet are 1/32" smaller than mine and the Selmer Concept. That's small and so very wrong. But to answer your question pretty much most mouthpieces would be OK. Just mess around with barrels if needed. If anyone plays on the Zinner's and Rico's and are madly in love with them, don't buy a Yamaha. You will be choking off the volume output of what the Yamaha can do for you.
For Buffet diehards and loyalty forever remember I played on them for 45 plus years. They let me down. So I spent 8 months looking for something better. Guy Chadash has much better horns; based on the 1960's Buffet but tune great, Selmer's work great, lets see what Julian Bliss and Leblanc come up with. Look around before spending a pile of money.
Remember the 1960's Buffets are now pushing the 50 year mark. Finding one in mint condition is not gonna happen. The wood is dried out, warped, and will probably cracked or has cracks. The key holes probably aren't flat, the metal will have too much play in them, it's just a mess so overhauling is a waste of time. The inside bores will have stress grain which should be sealed. There is a video somewhere with Harold Wright saying he buys new horns within every 5 to 8 years because they get played out.
Just don't do it unless you know a really gifted repairman.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2018-06-22 09:50)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: donald
Date: 2018-06-23 06:41
I have a 1963 R13 B flat clarinet with keys that are worn down more than any instrument I've ever seen! The tone hole chimneys have finger shaped indentations :-)
Its previous owner loved it and played it for 54 years and passed it on to me because he knew I would love it and play it (I did pay for it- it came with a lovely A clarinet of later vintage that is now my "go to" A).
I've previously played "modern" R13s, but since 2009 have been playing a Buffet Festival B flat. While I liked my previous R13 B flat (purchased from Bob Gilbert in 1998), from playing the newer instruments you'd wonder HOW this became the "go to" pro clarinet- the newer ones are "ok" but very patchy, all have flaws, even the best ones aren't THAT good....
But playing this OLD one from 1963, that tell you WHY this model was so popular. The sound is really much sweeter, more core in the sound but also lots of harmonics- I think of the modern ones sounding like an electric torch (flashlight), and the older ones sounding like a gas lamp or candle. The "evenness" of tone quality seems slightly better than the new ones, but no one has ever built a clarinet with no problems- they are inherent in the design.
The tuning?
Not as good as my Festival, but not too awful either. The only really negative is that the upper register A, B and C (left hand) are quite sharp compared to the festival. Throat B flat is correspondingly better in tone quality. The other intonation issues are either easy to fix (ie sharp throat A) or no better/worse than a modern clarinet.
I'd recommend great caution in buying one off the internet- if I'd bought this instrument hoping for an instrument for professional use I'd be looking for at least $1,000 ($600+ US$) restoration, probably using a few of the Buffet keys my friend has in his workshop from dead clarinets to replace ring keys and the right hand F/C.
However from playing my old lady from 1963, it is obvious WHY this model rose to such popularity.
dn
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Episkey
Date: 2018-06-23 17:42
I've encountered well over 12 vintage horns in very very playable condition, some.with the original logos intact. . There were plenty of people who bought R13s for their kids or themselves back in the day that haven't used them and due to suitable conditions the wood didnt change very much at all in the timespan.
For those horns we found that were good, maybe 3 or 4 more weren't in that great shape.
The best of that dozen had the original German silver keywork. Some even had original pads!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: m1964
Date: 2018-07-05 08:02
LGS316217 wrote:
"I have a love affair with the older Buffets. I play a 1950's pre-R13. I have heard much about even new Buffets requiring a lot of setup, not "plug and play." You def have to expect to have a lot of adjustments made to any older horn. But the cost of the overhaul plus buying the instrument in the first place is still very cost effective, compared to buying a quality new instrument. I have learned much from my time spent with my clarinet. First thing I've learned is patience. From wear, history of sketchy repairs, and just age, expect the hardware to need work...
Best advice I can give is, try to locate a vintage clarinet local to you; if you must deal with eBay, only go with a seller that has a reasonable return policy, so you can get the instrument evaluated by a good tech and can send it back if it turns out not to be worth what you paid".
Hi LGS316217,
Thanks a lot for your advice.
I sort of acted on emotion and bought an R13 from a seller that would not accept the return.
The clarinet was described as "being serviced recently and three pads were replaced to bring it into good playable condition".
I was reading the description late at night and misread it - missed the "r", thinking that "the pads were replaced".
After I got it ,I saw it had mostly old pads (probably original), and the 2 new ones were too thick so the rings on the lower joint and the D-ring on the upper joint were too high. Tenon cork on the lower joint was replaced with cheap cork and was out of round.
After I complained to the seller he sent me the receipt showing he paid $100 for two pads and one tenon cork replacement at a chain store in TX. Also, they replaced all key corks but some keys would not open fully...So he refunded me $50 and now I am going to spend over $300 to have it re-padded, thumb rest relocated and other adjustments done.
I am currently playing a 15-18 y. old E12 that was not used much by its previous owner so it is in a good condition mechanically.
It may be difficult for me to go to a 50-60 years old instrument with problems. Sort of selling a new Toyota Corolla and buying and old MB S500: bullet-proof reliability vs. ride quality but the MB may stall in the middle of the road...
So I chose a compromise and bought more recent used R13 (from year 2000). The metal and the tone holes looked decent, it is being serviced and I should get it back this weekend (fingers crossed).
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2018-07-05 09:01
I find that the wood on the older R13's is superior to the newer ones. It seems that most of the newer ones have a good bit of grain where the older ones do not.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: m1964
Date: 2018-07-07 08:32
Clarineteer wrote:
> I find that the wood on the older R13's is superior to the
> newer ones. It seems that most of the newer ones have a good
> bit of grain where the older ones do not.
Hi Clarineteer,
What year instrument would you consider a "newer one" ?
Was there a specific year when the R13 changed significantly?
Was it "only" tonal quality that changed or was there anything else that changed like tuning?
Thanks
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2018-07-07 09:51
Buffet did change sources for getting wood. The wood NOW isn't as good. It comes from a different country, because of no more wood.
I'm by far no expert on this subject. But contact Guy Chadash in New York City. He was telling me about the lack of quality wood. Guy still is able to get it from where Buffet once got their wood. He was telling me how stinky the wood is now.
It's worth calling him before you buy an R13. His horns are designed really well, like the Golden era. I've played them. Handmade. Tell him I sent you if you really want that special smaller bore from the 1960's. Dream horns.
I almost bought a set. Yep they are that good. They are Buffet's on Steroids. Really fine horns.
I went with the Yamaha's. But if I didn't I would have bought these. I still might buy a set just to have that 1960's sweet Buffet sound.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
