 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: DougR
Date: 2018-05-19 18:53
Hi folks, I have opportunity to buy a Selmer CT; however there are some anomalies: the bell appears to be a RI/BT bell (it has that elaborate triangular-shaped import stamp below the Selmer logo typical of the RI) and the serial number is definitely a K9XXX series, which (per my serial listing) is a Radio Improved K series dating from 1931. (the upper joint, however, clearly has the CT logo and stamping and that's where the K9XXX serial is shown in pictures)
Possibly it's a CT with a replacement RI bell (but via the Clarinet Perfection serial listing, there were no K-series CTs made). The other possibility is that the upper joint is a CT joint replacement, and the rest is RI-vintage. (In which case there should be a star to the right of the serial number on the upper joint, is this right?). But why would the upper joint, IF a replacement, have a K serial number? Very puzzling!!
I would appreciate it if anyone with certain knowledge about these horns could weigh in. Visually the instrument and case and all the pieces have been together a very long time, and played a lot, and worn about equally all over, so it might be a very good instrument once it's put right--just perhaps not a CT.
thanks for any light you could shed!
(PS, the mouthpiece is an HS Table without the oval, if that means anything)
Post Edited (2018-05-19 19:38)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2018-05-19 20:22
Is it listed for sale in Portugal by any chance?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: DougR
Date: 2018-05-19 20:38
No, Chris, it isn't. It's local USA, a music store. I did run across one Selmer Clarinet serial list that indicates there were K series instruments made during WWII, but the "CT" upper joint stamping doesn't make sense in view of that. But the serial number is on both upper and lower joints.
?? wtf!?
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Author: shmuelyosef
Date: 2018-05-22 04:49
Attachment: CT_Bores.JPG (27k)
I have a couple of Centered Tones of different vintage, and have restored a number. I haphazardly keep a chart of bore information, which I have excerpted here. You will see that these are NOT cylindrical (contrary to popular belief), and similar to the Series 9 in this respect.
Check the bore measurements at top and bottom of the upper joint and the top of the lower joint. The bells on many of these clarinets have been replaced as this vintage (K-->Q serial numbers) tended to get bell cracks early on. One of my CTs (my favorite as a matter of fact) has been modified slightly to fit a 10G bell, which are commonly available as NOS.
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Author: DougR
Date: 2018-05-25 07:45
Thanks, Jeff, I will. the chart is valuable too. I still think it's a CT with a RI bell, and the serial stamp letter prefix is an entirely different font and weight than the number that follows it--at least on the upper joint. Now that I have the horn in hand, I can see that on the lower joint, the serial number is illegible, but the amount of wear is identical on the upper and lower joints, so I'm going with "Centered tone" as a model designation. Appreciate the info!
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Author: TrueTone
Date: 2018-05-27 22:04
Are you sure the K in the serial isn't just a worn down R?
That would fit with it being a CT, as it's definitely not from the 20s, being marked as a Centered Tone. (that is, assuming someone didn't previously use a CT upper joint as a replacement for a cracked RI upper joint and stamped the old serial into it.)
(Also, out of curiosity, what's the serial chart you're using? The year you gave is a year off from what the one I use says for that: http://www.woodwindforum.com/clarinetperfection/selmer-paris/ )
What Shmuelyosef said makes sense though, I've seen a lot of Selmers from this time that cracked and have replacement parts, some of which don't match, so an RI bell could end up on a CT. (I.e. someone locally is selling an R Series Mazzeo System Selmer that has a Series 10 bell and barrel.)
If it's a different font, could you take a picture of it, Doug?
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Author: DougR
Date: 2018-05-31 05:42
hi TrueTone. Yeah, it's definitely a K. I've tried to attach a picture but when I click "Add Attachment" (below) absolutely nothing happens, so you'll have to take my word for it. (Is there some magical secret additional step that needs to be taken, does anyone know? I know I'm doing something wrong, I just don't know what.)
Was using the same serial list you mention but I may have simply misremembered the year.
I ran across another post in the archives claiming a K serial number for a CT, and I'm beginning to think the K designation may have been used at some point to indicate a replaced joint, possibly a replacement lower joint (since, as I say, it has no serial number or an obliterated one).
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Author: John G.
Date: 2018-06-01 01:55
Doug, I just had a similar problem trying to post pics and it didn't initially work because my file sizes were HUGE. Size the pics down to about 600x800 and it should work! I'd love to see it!
John
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Author: DougR
Date: 2018-06-04 04:14
Oh, by the way, it's a full-Bohm instrument!
(I didn't mention it because I didn't think the fact had anything germane to do with the serial number issue.) Was I wrong about that?
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Author: John G.
Date: 2018-06-04 06:14
Doug, maybe it's just me, but that K prefix in the upper joint serial # looks altered. You say the lower joint serial # is ineligible? For what it's worth, it does look nice and if the upper/lower joints fit well and the A ring finger matches well with the F ring, you should be good to go. I can't offer a logical explanation for the serial # mystery. Oh, one more question....is the barrel metal lined and/or have an inside metal sleeve?
John
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Author: DougR
Date: 2018-06-04 22:14
Hi John--Yeah, the K absolutely does look altered, or possibly stamped over whatever letter was there before, and the lower joint serial is illegible. Actually it was the seller who flagged the discrepancy and brought it to my attention, but he's no expert on older Selmer clarinets (as neither am I) so he agreed to take a bit less due to the uncertainty, and I figure whatever parts the horn is made up with have been together for a very very long time (wear patterns are identical on all the pieces), so I sent it to the shop to get the worst leaks removed and then I'll take it from there.
(I believe it has a Radio Improved bell, too--whether that affects the acoustics of the instrument, or the tuning, I can't say.)
Whatever it is, I'm looking forward to giving it a toot when it's ready.
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2018-06-05 00:07
DougR wrote:
> the bell appears to be a RI/BT bell (it has that elaborate triangular-shaped
> import stamp below the Selmer logo typical of the RI)
Well, I can remember I had once a CT that has the same import stamp on the bell. But it was certainly a CT bell. A CT bell is more free blowing than an RI bell.
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