 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2018-05-20 17:40
A question came back to mind the other night in a reading rehearsal. I'm interested in the reactions of experienced orchestral players.
This particular session involved a reading (with some limited time spent on rehearsing/refining) of Rachmaninov's 2nd Symphony. When we got to the big solo in the 2rd movement, I felt very comfortable and played it, I thought, more than acceptably. The conductor of the evening didn't criticize or ask me to do anything different from what I actually did. But he was conducting a very slow tempo - slower than I'm used to hearing it and had practiced it, and slow enough that I needed to take a couple of extra breaths in fail-safe spots that I would have preferred not to have needed. I tried as I played to move him along just a few beats/minute faster - closer to what I consider a good tempo for both expression and playability, but he wouldn't budge, even holding the high D out long enough that it almost had a fermata effect (think those high turning notes for the tenor in Nesse Dorma).
I once years ago played another reading of Petroushka in which the conductor ( a different one) actually conducted the cadenza in the 2nd Tableau.
My normal expectation is that if I'm playing something soloistic, at least when tempo and phrasing are elastic, I ought to be in control and that the conductor, as he would with a concerto soloist, ought to be giving me the lead and following, unless he really objects to something I'm doing. If it had been preparatory to a performance, I would have discussed it with him and, if he still wanted it that slow, I'd have had to give in and take the extra breaths - I only work there; he runs the place. But, since it was only a reading and we didn't even have time to repeat the movement (or the solo), once we had played it, it became a moot issue.
I play in several local free-lance orchestras as well as this weekly reading group, and I have only occasionally run into this situation. I'm interested in knowing what other players, both free-lancers and those in bigger, more stable orchestras have experienced.
Karl
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Author: Ken Lagace
Date: 2018-05-20 18:05
Sorry kdk, the conductor is the boss unless you are playing in front of the orchestra when you can collaborate.
You might ask diplomatically back stage for some changes and maybe he/she may change a bit, or not.
I always taught, if the conductor asks you to play standing on your head, you play standing on your head.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2018-05-20 18:19
I agree with Ken. The conductor is in charge and while you might not agree with him, it's his game. If there is social interaction within the group you might try discussing the issue there, but if not then that's the end of the matter.
Tony F.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2018-05-20 18:32
Ken Lagace wrote:
> I always taught, if the conductor asks you to play standing on
> your head, you play standing on your head.
Well, in general, you're right, though I think asking me to play standing on my head would warrant an appeal to the union rep. And I would never suggest to my young students who have very limited experience with ensemble playing to do anything but their best to satisfy the conductor's idea of the music.
And, of course, too, I did end up following this conductor's slower-than-usual-or-comfortable tempo. I even followed the other conductor's conducting in the Petroushka cadenza, although I though it was supremely egotistical of him to have done it. And if, after a brief discussion, the conductor made it clear that he was firmly committed to whatever he was doing for overall aesthetic reasons, and that it wasn't just force of unthinking habit, I wouldn't carry on a protest or try to sabotage his decision in a performance (which was not involved in either of the examples I gave).
I have far more often, BTW, had a conductor tell me to do a ritardando or a rubato on my own and he/she would follow me. Given an experienced player and an experienced conductor, IMO that's as it should be. But some conductors are more authoritarian and less flexible than that.
I'm not asking it it's OK to defy a conductor and do what you as a player think is a better idea. Of course it isn't (within my physical capability, which emphatically does not include playing while standing on my head). I'm only musing about how often other experienced players find themselves in situations where what the conductor wants/does conflicts with the player's own expressive instincts in solo passages, and perhaps what they have seen result musically from the conflict.
Karl
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2018-05-20 19:17
Such internal aesthetic clashes must be common, no? Probably some composers in some pieces intended a solo to be played with rubato and display a temporary freedom, while others intended a more particular effect in context of the containing music. The conductor decides what degree of which effects, but I can easily imagine thinking the conductor "wrong", either as a player or -especially- as a godlike audience member.
In the referenced Rach, I'd think the basic tempo of the solo wouldn't want to vary from that for the overall movement, even if the overall tempo itself were debatable.
Up one rung, there've been a number of publicized open disagreements between concerto soloists and conductors, about tempi and other aspects, that actually carried into live performance, with sometimes infamous results.
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Author: Ken Lagace
Date: 2018-05-20 19:37
Karl, of course my students were smart enough to know it wasn't literal advice, and just meant to get a laugh.
Philip, there was one between Harold Wright and Colin Davis that caused quite a stir a long time ago.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2018-05-20 21:20
Ken Lagace wrote:
> Karl, of course my students were smart enough to know it wasn't
> literal advice, and just meant to get a laugh.
Of course they were. as am I. And I think everyone who's reading this thread knows I was just extending your joke to make a couple of my own. I'm sorry if they fell flat.
Karl
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2018-05-20 21:26
Philip Caron wrote:
> In the referenced Rach, I'd think the basic tempo of the solo
> wouldn't want to vary from that for the overall movement, even
> if the overall tempo itself were debatable.
Well, there were plenty of inflections of the tempo in other areas of the movement. I don't think anyone would play it at a metronomically inflexible tempo. I thought that the conductor's being a highly skilled violinist might have colored his view of the tempo for the opening thematic statement (the clarinet solo). Violinists don't need to support their sound with their breath and change bow much more often than wind players breathe. They can play slower, longer unbroken phrases without running into the demands of physical survival.
Karl
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2018-05-20 21:31
Leadership is generally the same in any area of life.
I think this points up a more general divergence in conductors' view of the musicians in the orchestras they conduct. I have played for conductors who regarded the players as colleagues with whom they had come to make music together. I have played for others to whom we in the orchestra were simply tools they had at their disposal toward reaching their own, not necessarily shared, musical visions.
In either case, the conductor's decisions ruled. With conductors in the first group, their decisions included collaboration and consideration of the players' input (whether verbal or musical).
Karl
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Author: concertmaster3
Date: 2018-05-21 07:08
As an English horn player, I often run into the composers that want to rush through some of my solos. My professor in my Bachelors and Masters taught me to memorize all of my solos, and stare the conductor down as I play them. If I wanted to change the tempo, add rubato, etc, I could easily do it, as long as I didn't take my eyes off him. It's worked numerous times, from Dvorak 9 to American in Paris, and even in something as simple as the "Do You Want To Build a Snowman" solo in the Suite from Frozen.
Ron Ford
Woodwind Specialist
Performer/Teacher/Arranger
http://www.RonFordMusic.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2018-05-21 14:01
I played the alto sax part in Bizet's L'Arlesienne suite with the solo in the 1st movement (where the clarinet plays the same four note motif throughout). The conductor took this at a right ol' lick at the rehearsal and when I asked him if that's really the speed he's going to be taking it, the principal oboist turned around and jokingly said, "No - he'll do it faster at the concert." And sure enough he did. I like to play it at around 80bpm, but he took it at at least 120bpm. Once he set his tempo, the only thing anyone could do was go with it.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2018-05-22 09:54
I think you can ask as a suggestion. Don't think most conductors would mind.
Once I got to play under Aaron Copland, not the concerto, but Rodeo and a few other pieces and a trumpet player was stuck between single and double tonguing. So Aaron of course stopped the orchestra and said he would follow the trumpet player. That solved the problem.
If we as players can't make the piece sound right for whatever reason I think we can ask for advice. The conductor wants HIS orchestra to sound great!
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2018-05-28 17:52
The conductor always has the last word but of course you can politely ask. One time years ago while playing Mahlers 6th with the BSO David Zinman conducting I took a breath before the end of the slow bass clarinet solo in the first movement. He asked me to do it in one breath and i politely replied, is it possible to move it just a bit, he did, i did. I still had to really pump up before starting it though but made it every night.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: thereallukasj
Date: 2018-05-28 20:02
A wise man once told me, "A conductor is just as responsible for the solo as the soloist is." The way I translate that to this situation is if the audience thinks "Wow that was slower then I'm used to," then it is partly the conductors fault for his choice of tempo (or lack of cues, expression points, etc.) If I were a conductor rather then a clarinetist, I would check with all my soloists in private and ask them about tempos, expression points, whether or not they want to be cued, etc. to find out what would make my orchestra sound the best and then give the soloist the tools to complete that task. If it were me, I would talk to the conductor in private and ask about changing the tempo of your solo exerpt and see what he says. Worst thing he could say is no.
Lukas
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