 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Fergi
Date: 2018-05-14 09:37
Does anyone know the "official" measurements of a Mitchell Lurie L1 Bb clarinet mouthpiece? I have one, crystal, and I love it, but I'd like to know why!
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Author: Mojo
Date: 2018-05-14 17:16
Target measurements probably will be a little different than what you have. You will need to get yours measured.
MojoMP.com
Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
MojoMouthpieceWork@yahoo.com
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2018-05-17 07:54
I was very good friends with Mitchell. The mouthpieces were made by Pomarico. As Mojo said they were not all the same as the tip openings varied. I measured around 100 or so.
If you wish to send it to me I can measure it for you at no charge of course. The bore was on the small side. The chamber and baffle also varied a bit. I can also provide you with these measurements and compare them to mine or what the old Chedeville and Kaspar mouthpieces were.
In general the measurements were 34, 23, 11, and 5 or 6. Often uneven, but not too uneven. A few were 37, 25, 12, and 7. So you can see how much they were often off. I did adjust some facings for him for his friends and students. The crystal MP's (mouthpieces) took more time and you need a diamond stone for the best results. His rubber MP's were also made by Pomarico and much more accurate. These in general were good mouthpieces.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2018-05-17 08:23
I was very good friends with Mitchell. The mouthpieces were made by Pomarico. As Mojo said they were not all the same as the tip openings varied. I measured around 100 or so.
If you wish to send it to me I can measure it for you at no charge of course. The bore was on the small side. The chamber and baffle also varied a bit. I can also provide you with these measurements and compare them to mine or what the old Chedeville and Kaspar mouthpieces were.
In general the measurements were 34, 23, 11, and 5 or 6. Often uneven, but not too uneven. A few were 37, 25, 12, and 7. So you can see how much they were often off. I did adjust some facings for him for his friends and students. The crystal MP's (mouthpieces) took more time and you need a diamond stone for the best results. His rubber MP's were also made by Pomarico and much more accurate. These in general were good mouthpieces.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Mojo
Date: 2018-05-19 18:00
Odd looking curves to me when graphed. What tip openings go with them?
MojoMP.com
Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
MojoMouthpieceWork@yahoo.com
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Author: kdk
Date: 2018-05-19 19:21
Mojo wrote:
> Odd looking curves to me when graphed. What tip openings go
> with them?
>
This seems as good a time as any to bring up a question that keeps nagging at me. I've reached a point where I have no really clear idea, when I read an "official" tip measurement (to use Fergi's term), what it really means except in general terms. If a maker or refacer says model A has tip 1.03mm and model B has tip 1.07mm, I know that B is more open than A. But if I use one of my own gauges (I have three different ones), I may well get 1.05mm and 1.08mm or 1.01 and 1.06. The comparison is the same, but not the actual numbers.
Obviously, different gauges don't produce the same results. It isn't my technique that's at fault - I get the same readings with repeated measurements of the same mouthpiece using the same gauge. What do the mouthpiece experts here use as tip gauges? Is there one on the market that's considered more accurate than others?
Karl
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Author: Ken Lagace
Date: 2018-05-19 23:25
>>What do the mouthpiece experts here use as tip gauges?
>>Is there one on the market that's considered more accurate than others?
Although the tip can be measured in many ways, I believe the important measurement is the distance from the inside of the tip to the flat of the table, since this is the actual opening for the air stream.
From the tip to the flat table measures where the reed may want to be set, so may have some influence how the mouthpiece may feel but this is of lesser importance.
Following that, a tapered gauge that slips into the mouthpiece is best. I am curious how you are getting three different measurements from three different gauges. Maybe only one is measuring from the inside of the tip? Is your table curved or crooked in some way? There is only one correct measurement for the opening there so it may be easy to know which gauge is the accurate one.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2018-05-20 00:10
Ken, I use the glass that came with the Brand kit. Centering it against the table, lining up the mouthpiece tip and the end of the glass, then sliding the taper gauge gently into the opening between the glass and the mouthpiece. The same way, I think, I saw Matsen do it when I sat and watched him years ago reface some of my mouthpieces.
I also have a dial gauge that came with the Brand kit. It has a guide against which to rest the tip so that the feeler on the gauge measures the same place consistently when the mouthpiece is held flat against the glass it's installed through. I don't use this one so much because there's no restraint to hold the mouthpiece in place - you have to hold it still against the glass with your thumb(s) and I find that the mouthpiece slides around a good deal. I'm also not certain that the metal probe that touches the mouthpiece doesn't have the potential to damage the rail.
> I am curious how you are getting three different
> measurements from three different gauges.
Well, I'm assuming my gauges are not accurately tapered. Of course there's only one correct measurement for a given mouthpiece. But the number assigned to it by an inaccurately made gauge may not match another gauge's measurement regardless of which gauge is the accurate one (assuming that either is accurate). I assume that Bob Bernardo or Clark Fobes or Walter Grabner have a way to measure the tip openings of their mouthpieces accurately. Hence, my question - what *is* a gauge of known quality of manufacture and accuracy?
Karl
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Author: Ken Lagace
Date: 2018-05-20 00:32
How about sinking the tapered gauge in between the glass and the mouthpiece and marking on the gauge where it stops, or by eye, and using a calibrated caliper to measure the taper at that point. Then you know what the correct measurement is supposed to be and testing which gauges you have to see which is accurate or not. I would guess anyone now wanting to answer your question is doing the same with their gauges to see if any come out correctly. I will test my Opperman now to see how accurate it is, but it not made any more.
Thanks for posing the question - this can result in more valuable information for others.
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Author: Ken Lagace
Date: 2018-05-20 00:46
Update;
My glass with tapered gauge measures 1.12mm, and measuring the taper at that point measures 1.11mm. That means five 10,000ths of an inch difference! Probably it is more of a measureing position error than a tool error.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2018-05-20 02:54
Ken Lagace wrote:
> How about sinking the tapered gauge in between the glass and
> the mouthpiece and marking on the gauge where it stops, or by
> eye, and using a calibrated caliper to measure the taper at
> that point.
Interesting. One taper gauge, which I seem to remember was also supplied with the Brand kit because of some problem they were having with the dial gauges, measures with the caliper exactly what the gradations on the taper say. The other taper gauge is at most .01 off.
So, my gauges don't seem to be the problem. I've also dug up my copy of the Brand Band Instrument Repairing Manual, in which he describes (with accompanying drawings) how to use the gauge properly, so I don't think there can be anything wrong with my measuring method.
Still, one mouthpiece that's supposed to be 1.03mm shows 1.07mm for me. Another that's advertised as 0.96mm for me measures a whopping 1.07mm. Another of the same model with the same nominal facing is 1.04mm. I do have a Rico Reserve X0 and an X5 that measure .99mm and 1.06mm respectively, so they're very close. Other mouthpieces produce differences between what's advertised and what I get.
I'm left with the assumption that either (a) the commercially advertised tip measurements are wrong or (b) they're somehow being taken in a different way. I don't want to identify specific mouthpieces. The tip opening isn't ultimately what's important. What's important is the way a mouthpiece plays, and all of the mouthpieces in question play quite well. I'm certain the explanation isn't sloppy measuring or workmanship at the facer's end - they're all highly reputable and produce quite good mouthpieces. But, still, I'm intrigued by the differences. Are there other measuring tools in use that may measure at a different point on the rail from the spot touched by a taper gauge inserted into the opening?
My apologies to Fergi for hi-jacking this thread, but references to "official" measurements have lately been a trigger for me.
Karl
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Author: Mojo
Date: 2018-05-21 17:24
The only gauge standards I know of that you can measure against are certified gauge blocks. For a wand gauge, you would need to measure the wand with a micrometer or caliper that has been compared to gauge blocks. Here is a video I made comparing feeler gauges to gauge blocks:
https://youtu.be/E7EWKOL8wAg
Here is one on zeroing non-wand gauges:
https://youtu.be/KXgF2OXnxhA
The shape of your end probe on the gauge can affect your reading as well as your ability to position it. Wand gauges can also have issues. Take a few reading to see how repeatable your are.
Manufacturing variability is a reality. It is rare to find several new mouthpieces from the same maker that will measure the same within .001”-.002”. Used mouthpieces can vary even more from target due to wear and slight warpage over time. Sometimes the errors offset and it actually measures on target!
MojoMP.com
Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
MojoMouthpieceWork@yahoo.com
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2018-05-21 22:17
I was curious about my Wanne glass that I bought to replace an Erick Brand. The Wanne is quite beveled and I thought it might give different readings. When I compared the tip openings measured by the Brand they were the same.
Is it true that the wand is hitting the inner edge of the tip rail? From what I understand the tip opening is usually pretty constant throughout the tip rail as refacers go straight back at this area of the curve.
Freelance woodwind performer
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