 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: DougR
Date: 2018-05-13 18:45
I'm writing this to ask for suggestions, not to get into a big long "is there or isn't there" discussion about national styles. (Although if that's where people want to go, fine, I don't think it's been litigated on the board recently...)
I'm specifically inquiring about "the English sound" because, if it exists, presumably it does so on big-bore equipment (Eatons or Boosey 1010s) and if that type of equipment yields a particular 'style' that's distinct in character from what's achieved with French or American-designed (American because Tom Ridenour, of course) clarinets and mouthpieces, I'd like to know about it.
So: does anyone want to recommend current recordings (I'm asking current because the recorded sound will be better) of English-school artists? (who are indisputably recording on big-bore instruments and mouthpieces?)
And, if anyone has experience playing a big-bore instrument and blending with a modern clarinet section or ensemble, and wants to chime in on how it went, I'd be curious to read what you have to say!
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2018-05-13 19:11
I have a 1010 which I sometimes take out for an airing. My limited experience of it is that while it's a delight to play it doesn't sit well among the (mostly) Buffets in the concert bands that I play in because it's a bit overpowering. I find that my forte is fortier that theirs and it irritates them. On the other hand, it's a great instrument for jazz because it gives me a chance to be heard among the trumpets.
Tony F.
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Author: JohnP
Date: 2018-05-13 22:10
As one of the two principals of the Royal Opera House Orchestra I play Eaton large bores, there are two players in the section who play second, one on R13 prestiges and one on Yamahas. I think we blend fine, there’s simply no problem, it’s more about the sound in your head, we’re aiming for a similar sound but using different equipment to get there. I also have a pair of R13 prestiges which I used at one time, I don’t think I sounded much different on them but play Eatons mainly because I think the intonation is better. Whether we or I sound “English” I wouldn’t like to say, we’re certainly not trying to sound “English” but a player from another country may hear something he or she might like to put a label on.
John
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2018-05-13 23:28
Without wanting to blow my own trumpet you could get hold of my CDs.
English Fantasy on Cala Records I’m playing Eaton Elites.
British Serenade on Heritage Records I’m playing Backun MoBa.
I leave you to make up your mind.
As John rightly says above it’s about the tonal concepts one has and how one approaches the instrument.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2018-05-14 01:08
Don't know how recent it is, but Emma Johnson has a fantastic recording of the Zemlinsky trio, and I think she plays Eatons, or at least did at the time. Not in John's or Peter's class, but I play 1010s in the U.S., with either a Pillinger or an Eaton mouthpiece. The mouthpiece can make a big difference in how specifically English you sound. I tried out some at Ed Pillinger's, and he had a series that would make you sound like Kell or de Peyer. Since I don't want to, I got one with a nice dark pseudo-German sound.
I haven't noticed a problem blending. Everyone has a bit of a personal sound anyway, but there's nothing about the 1010 that causes it to stick out or not to blend when you're, say, playing a solo part in thirds with your colleague. I could, if I wanted, cut through over most of the other clarinetists I play with, probably because of the bore, but of course people don't like playing with you if you do things like that. They play soft just fine.
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Author: Ken Lagace
Date: 2018-05-14 05:04
Back in the 60's I could always identify on the radio the German clarinet sound as dark and centered, the French as light and fluid and the English sound as hollow and loud. There wasn't an American sound back then. Now it is difficult for me to tell the nationality of the current players although I can sometimes guess the player. They have all moved toward the same type of sound. I also admit that my hearing has deteriorated over the years and maybe younger ears can tell the difference.
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Author: DougR
Date: 2018-05-14 06:19
Well, I thank you all for your input. My reason for the original post is that I just acquired a Selmer Series 9, and have little interest in playing jazz on it. So, who (I asked myself) plays big-bore clarinets in classical settings? The English! (well, not so much any more, clearly, or not exclusively, but that was my original idea anyway.) Your posts are pretty reassuring in terms of "blend" (leaving aside the tuning issues on the Series 9 instruments) and I now have some players to check out, so for all that, much thanks.
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2018-05-14 08:25
Remember that 1010s have a cylindrical bore to the flair, which happens about were it does with French-style clarinets. Eaton introduced a slight reverse conical bore in the upper joint of the Elites for tuning, but it still sounds substantially like a 1010. Don't know much about the Series 9 bore.
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Author: Hurstfarm
Date: 2018-05-14 18:23
As already suggested, Emma Johnson's recordings are a good reference point, as she has generally played wide bore Peter Eatons. I've also used them for the past 20 years or so in a wide variety of settings, and never found a problem blending with other members of the section. Part of ensemble playing is to learn to adjust to who you are playing with in terms of sound, balance and intonation, and they are very flexible. I no longer use them exclusively, but they would usually be my preference for orchestral work.
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Author: DougR
Date: 2018-05-17 20:30
Hi all--I have a cd of "English Fantasy" on the way to me, and listening to Tom's tracks on youtube (link above) I'm thinking: If I could sound that good on my S9 I would be very, very happy. (just ordered a copy of 'Cafe' as well...look for whopping great royalty checks at the end of the month, guys!!)
I know I've got an Emma Johnson cd around here somewhere too.
Are players using Eatons and Rossis rather than 1010s these days due to improved tuning, or are the newer instruments just better overall, or is there some other reason?
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2018-05-18 00:29
In my opinion Emma Johnson, a very fine musician, tends to have a rather unique and personal sound which I would not consider a true indicator of the "English school" sound.
To my ears it's an "Emma school" sound and as such a wee bit like Marmite.
Richard Hosford, principal clarinet of the BBC Symphony Orchestra, and a founder member and for many years principal clarinet of the Chamber Orchestra of Europe (COE), has played Peter Eaton Elite (wide bore) Clarinets for many years. He has made a wide range of chamber music recordings with the Gaudier Ensemble and for some years with the Nash Ensemble as well is concerto and ensemble recordings with the COE.
I would think he more closely represents the current English style than Emma.
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2018-05-18 00:44
Tried an Eaton Elite a couple years ago. Definitely better tuning than the corresponding 1010, a saner positioning of the thumb rest, pretty much the same sound, and does not have the Acton mechanism. I'd guess opinion is split on the Acton, but I really like it, as it transforms the high Eb into a welcome event. That's the only reason I don't have a set of Eatons.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2018-05-18 11:53
I'm sure you could have an Acton vent fitted to any clarinet if you want to.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2018-05-18 17:39
Chris, I'm sure you're right, but not so much in the States, and since it's just another option you can choose at S&S, it tipped the balance to wanting to see what their instruments are like. Quite a painful price difference, though. I suppose I, probably like a lot of players, just wasn't used to thinking in terms of sending an instrument somewhere for someone to drill new holes and put new keys on it. It would be good if information on the availability of that sort of thing were more widely available.
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Author: PhilipE
Date: 2018-05-19 00:44
I think there's a lot of old codswallop talked about the 'English' sound. What the heck is it anyway? One of the greatest British (he was English) clarinettists, Bernard Walton, played on Schmidt Kolbe clarinets. Pat Ryan, principal of the Hallé for years (he died during the early seventies) played non Boehm system instruments, maybe Clinton Boehm, I'm not sure. Charlie Draper played Martel clarinets. These three artists were renowned for their beautiful, expressive sound quality. Later on, Alan Hacker's preferred instruments were those made by EJ Albert of Brussels - precursors of the 1010 clarinet.
Britain is just simply too insular, and too little attention has been paid to the great players of the French and German tradition. The 'English Sound' monniker is just an excuse for playing in a rather limp, unfocussed, non-progressive style. Brymer was a great musician, and influential player, but he started off on simple system instruments, and the influence of those remained with him until the end of his career. He's had many imitators, but every single one of them has remained in his shadow.
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Author: Tom Piercy
Date: 2018-05-23 14:30
DougR,
Thanks for buying a copy of my CAFE CD,
I hope you enjoy the music.
Tom
Tom Piercy
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