 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2018-05-05 22:54
Hi folks,
After just a few months, I think I've fallen in love with the bass clarinet. And after lots of positive resonance from others, I'd really like to permanently add the bass clarinet to my repetoire.
It was rented from the local music school and has been used since 1997, though not quite regularly, in an excellent youth orchestra. Now, I've often stumbled over the comments that Leblanc basses are mediocre instruments with keywork problems, and a local tech who knew the instrument told me it was unfit for more serious concert use.
But so far, it did more than OK - however it needs a service.
Curiously enough, a part of the double register mechanism has bee removed, so that it cant't be activated by the A key for playing the throat Bb - instead, you need to use the RH G/D key.
Also, it might have a slight crack in it, which is 2cm long, but it didnt affect my playing.
I do admit that it is raspy in the upper registers, but it has carried me very well throughout 2 concerts and seems to intonate pretty well. Playing the Bach suites was absolutely possible, but the RH pinky keys have contact with each other, making for pretty loud rattling.
So, with a necessary repadding, possibly respringing and cork change for the bell tenon, things that I'll gladly do myself, how much should I offer the music school? Should I rather take a look at the Ridenours/kessler style basses? While the keywork needs some serious adjustments, perhaps even bending, I feel that it's far away from being bendy, which might turn out to be a huge advantage over these "plastic" basses.
BTW, I'm more than tempted to order a Gear4Music low C bass, just to see what it can do compared to the Leblanc 430S
Thanks for your advice and best regards,
Christian
Post Edited (2018-05-05 22:59)
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2018-05-06 01:47
If the register mechanism is connected to the RH G/D key then it is one of the rarer models with an automatic double register mechanism which is a very good thing. One of the biggest criticisms of Leblanc bass clarinets is the standard register mechanism. However the fact that it is missing a key is a big problem.
It should be a good instrument but you should definitely consider having it overhauled. I recently sold one for $1500 but it was missing parts. I would say $2000-$3000 is probably a fair price if it needs a key and an overhaul.
-Jdbassplayer
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2018-05-06 10:46
Thanks jdbass - so given that the original case is falling apart and not really protecting the instrument, I'll start at 1500€
This part of the double register mechanism must've been removed intentionally, as they key rod had to be shortened to hide the missing connection between 2 posts. God knows why that was deemed necessary and were the part is gone. Using the LH G# + 2nd side trill key, the throat Bb sounds better than with the conventional fingering, so I'm getting along with that.
Could you compare them to a Ridenour? My guts say that this instrument is "the one" to keep
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2018-05-06 15:25
I do not have any knowledge of this model LeBlanc but I have a couple of concerns about this instrument. Before I'd make an offer, I'd have a tech look the instrument over and see what the "missing key" situation is and also to see about the status of the crack. Even if you can play test the bass satisfactorily, knowing if the crack is through or not is important.
Also, you mention that cost and I'm not sure if you are using Euros or dollars in you numbers. Be that as it may, $2000 to $3000 seems too high. Also, the work around for the Bb could be a problem.
I'd seek expert advice before making an offer.
HRL
Post Edited (2018-05-07 14:55)
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2018-05-06 15:44
Hank,
I've already talked with 2 teachers (1 of them a tech) about this instrument and feel competent enough to do the service on my own, so it's more about knowing whether this type of instrument is worth putting money and time into.
The crack is only superficial, but of course it might be dangerous for the instrument.
Also, as I've pointed out the bass already lasted through 2 concerts and all the problems that occured were rather due to a bad previous repair (no cork pads on register vents, so they stick, wrong pad heights on the lower part, shellac doesn't stick so well anymore...).
There's probably no way to gather the missing key, but for me, its fine, as I can just use lower RH G/D key as another workaround, too
Since the instrument was bought in Germany and I live there, I'll use Euros as a reference. Because of the strong dollar, 2000$ is ~1700€, which I feel is too much.
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2018-05-06 18:15
Comparing Ridenour To Leblanc, while the Leblanc definitely has better keywork the Ridenour is IMHO a better playing instrument with regards to intonation and evenness. I personally find Selmer bass clarinets to be the best.
You will definitely need to have the crack filled, if you do not have it repaired it might grow bigger. Also you should have the the key and rod replaced. I know that you can use your alternate fingering as a workaround but if you have to switch instruments for whatever reason you may make mistakes while playing. Also many bass clarinets have the lower vent open more when the A key is pressed than when the G/D key is pressed. This means that with your current fingering the Bb may not speak as clearly as it possibly could.
Also I'm not sure this was mentioned, this is a low C instrument right?
-Jdbassplayer
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2018-05-07 03:44
OK, that won't make the decision any easier. However, I can really assure you that I'm not bothered by this workaround and that in case if the 430S, the lower vent wouldn't open more by using the A key as the mechanism is simply rigidly extended down to the G/D key, so the heights should always be the same when activating it. I currently play soprano clarinet too and don't feel bothered by that, it does not seem to interfere with my playing.
These factors should really make a solid basis for negotiation, shouldn't they?
Yes, it's the Low C instrument, Low Eb isn't an option.
Re the Ridenour, I should've clarified that I'd rather get the Gear4Music Low C bass, which seems identical to the Kessler instrument, ehicht too has been praised online. Keywork quality is probably going to be the same
Post Edited (2018-05-07 03:44)
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2018-05-07 04:19
I wouldn't get a gear4music bass. While it may look the same, I would dobut that it is as good as a Ridenour or Kessler bass clarinet. Mr. Ridenour and Mr. Kessler have a reputation to uphold so they will stand behind their product. The instruments they sell are tuned and adjusted by an expert. Instruments such as this often come straight to you from China without any adjustments whatsoever.
If it's between the Leblanc and the Gear4Music get the Leblanc.
-Jdbassplayer
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2018-05-07 13:15
Attachment: IMG_20180507_111034.jpg (1556k)
Attachment: IMG_20180507_111112.jpg (1027k)
Wow, that went pretty fast.
The music school director pretty quickly agreed to 1500€, which is about 1800$
Maybe I should've gone lower, but honestly, with the performance it delivered so far, I'm looking forward to playing on it for the next years.
Here's 2 photos attached were you can see the plating's condition. Besides some wear and a few imperfections, there's no mayor scratches. The alleged "crack" really is only superficial, if anything, I'll fill it with a bit of thin CA.
Thanks again for your advice!
Post Edited (2018-05-07 13:20)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2018-05-09 10:47
Seems that the cost issue is solved anyway.
As mentioned it's a double register mech model as opposed to just a separate Bb key, and the mechanism from the G/D key is original... probably. If it was a simple separate Bb model and was modified to use the G/D for the Bb tone hole, it would usually work terrible as a vent for low clarion (B to Eb). So it sounds more like the linkage from the register mech to the throat A key was just removed for some reason. That area is not visible in your photos.
It's just a personal choice but to me not having the regular fingerings for throat Bb and having to use the D/G key would be a problem that I would fix. Not knowing what part is missing, it could be anything from a simple broken arm to an entire key with its hinge, arms and posts. Getting an original one is extremely unlikely but making one possible. Probably not the most difficult key to make either.
the Leblancs in general are in some ways not as good as the best Buffet and Selmer basses but they have a very good tone and decent intonation. The difference is such that some players might very well prefer its tone over the others.
Re the crack, I know there are so many opinions but after years of seeing just about any type of crack... it's too variable to say anything for sure. Some cracks get very big, then stay that way and never cause any problems. Some cracks start tiny and then suddenly or slowly grow. Some cracks will grow even if you pin or band them (even with excellent repairs).
My approach now is that if it's very small and not through a tone hole, just keep watching it and see if it changes. If it's a little larger, consider gluing it. If it opens again I might even just glue it again (statistically, most cracks that I've repaired that way, when opening after gluing them once, haven't opened a second time). I pin and/or carbon fiber band in some cases but almost never do that as a first repair... or at least it's extremely rare.
It does look like this crack might be getting into a tone hole so it could be a good idea to glue it anyway. Some people always prefer an insert when this happens but. Even though I can do it and sometimes do, it's unnecessary most of the time IMO.
In the case of a like-new clarinet a crack can lower the value significantly. With an instrument like this, maybe a little but not that much.
Post Edited (2018-05-10 07:32)
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2018-05-09 13:21
clarnibass, nice to read your input, too!
I've attached a photo of the area, basically, only the key and its axle are missing. Also, it actually has to be mounted on the upper part of the posts, so only a relatively short new axle will be necessary. Say, what would the costs of making a new one be?
For now, I'll watch the crack and fill it as soon as it gets any bigger.
Currently, there's a similiar overhauled model on an auction site for 5,9k$!! Seems however that there were versions with a one piece lower part and not a permantently fixed low C extension like in case of the 430S
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Author: super20bu6
Date: 2018-05-16 15:42
With my Leblanc Low C Bass...I use a MoBa Bass + mouthpiece...it really opened up the throat tones. Also...see if you have the forked Ab/Eb fingering option. Right hand...if you press the middle finger, is the tone hole ABOVE the tonehole for G/D or below it?? My Leblanc bass has that forked fingering instead of the left hand Alternate Ab/Eb key. I've had my Leblanc bass for a few years now.....and am perfectly happy with it...and at a fraction of the cost of a Selmer or Buffet. I'm not a pro player....but I've used this bass in Concert Band, Orchestras, Pit Orchestras and a Clarinet Choir.
Mark
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2018-05-21 20:02
Attachment: IMG_20180521_171904.jpg (1027k)
Attachment: IMG_20180521_174117.jpg (1593k)
Hi Mark,
My 430S doesn't have this option - it seems you have a different (older?) Model.
Now I've started taking the whole thing apart and noticed after changing the bell tenon cork: As the bell was a rather tight fit the first time I put it on, there was a very slight rotation! As it turned out, the low C "extension" is mounted with only 4 screws onto the rest of the body. The attached photos should explain how it's constructed (sorry for the quality).
A ring is attached with 4 screws onto the extension part, then it's connected like a normal extension, but fixed to the main body with 4 small screws, so a second "tenon" has been lathed into the main body. The arrow marks a small defect caused by a screw (which as a onsequence wouldn't tighten anymore) that I had to sand away, and in fact caused a very small gap between the extension and the lower body.
Tightening all screws was enough to stabilizer the extension, but I'm sure I'm going to have to use epoxy sooner or later. For now, everything seems fine though.
Post Edited (2018-05-21 20:06)
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