 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Speculator Sam
Date: 2018-04-15 21:49
Those dang clarinet students. Sometimes, they're all like "Oh, I'm not good because I play a stock mouthpiece on a student instrument. UGH!", "My ligature's dampening my reed, that's why I sound bad", and "Benny Goodman & Martin Frost sound great because they play a Buffet; Eddie Daniels & Richardo play Backun, that's why they sound good". The list goes on...
I have to ask though, can they even play one Gavotte? How about Hot Cross Buns? Can they even play "To a Wild Rose" without adding extra notes, also displaying some level of lyricism? No? It's not the equipment; they need to be honest with themselves, do a phone recording and honestly judge the recording and quit being babies. This video says it all.
Good equipment is helpful, if you can afford it then by all means. Good equipment, however, does not compensate for bad technique and intonation. This sort've thing I'm sure is common knowledge here, but I thought it'd be funny to share.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2018-04-15 22:45
So, what are you trying to prove with the posted video?
...GBK
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Author: Ken Lagace
Date: 2018-04-15 22:50
He sounds pretty good to me - on a green clarinet. He is 'talking' to me too. He shows talent.
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Author: jordan.1210
Date: 2018-04-15 23:09
I'm 20 years old and have played clarinet for almost 11 years (4th grade up to 2nd year of college). I'm a non-music major but I play in a clarinet group I'm trying to start, a sax quintet, an online orchestra, and pep band. From 4th to 12th grade I was also in my school's symphonic band/wind ensemble. I never had a private teacher and everything was learned personally or with help from peers. Out of the 3 clarinets (2 Bb, one bass) and 3 saxes (sop, tenor, bari) that I have, only 2 could be considered pro horns. My main instrument has been a Yamaha YCL-200AD with a 4C mouthpiece, generic metal ligature, and a Vandoren traditional reed (2.5-3 in high school, 3.5 or 3.5 V21 in college) since middle school. My bass is a Bundy and my sop and bari are Chinese. I don't need the best gear, just give me something that works and I'll play it to the best of my ability.
Although my groups nowadays aren't the most demanding, I still take pride in having good technique. Tone has always been a major focus for me. Whatever instrument I am playing, I really work on getting a good tone even if I'm just playing on the streets. This being said, I could definitely work on my sight reading and runs, but I think that just comes down to practice. Recording for an online orchestra has helped my playing too by showing me exactly how I'm playing and what I need to improve on. Funny enough, pep band has drastically helped my altissimo playing (I often take the written part and play up an octave).
I agree that the best equipment isn't necessary (I mean look at my equipment), take what you have and make it sound good. It has always annoyed me when someone blames something as basic as tone on equipment. There's been a couple people in my sax group that have blamed their bad playing on their reeds, only to switch them out and continue playing badly. I can understand messing up on hard runs or difficult passages, but tone should be natural.
Post Edited (2018-04-15 23:14)
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Author: Klose ★2017
Date: 2018-04-15 23:31
Sounds easy to solve. Just give them a Tosca with professional mouthpiece, reeds, ligature etc. and let them know it won't help at all.
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2018-04-16 00:03
It’s not really the kid’s fault, they don’t know any better. I don’t know who is handing out most of the advice, but I’m sure not enough kids have private teachers. I sold my R-13 (about $500 too cheap, apparently), and kept getting emails from parents saying how it was what their band directors said they should have. I’ve seen on here many students worried they could not make first chair or all-state without having a pro Buffet. I still have two unsold completely overhauled Vitos, which are great student horns, because nobody wants to pay more than $150, while at the same time they will pay $300+ for Yamahas in any condition (Yamahas are great, but it’s an old student horn that probably leaks like a seive). Everybody has to have a something-13 mouthpiece. I’ve said it before but ligature prices are obscene.
It was not totally different when I was a kid. Everybody smirked at my Buescher Alto, AND dismissed my blisteringly mint SA-80, because you were not serious without a “Mark VI”, and if it had been relacquered you were relegated to a lower caste. My teacher had me get a Moennig barrel, to solve no apparent problem. The one I got was too short. I felt inferior because I did not play #5 alto reeds. My best friend, an excellent musician, got this awful Dukoff for soprano, and did NOT sound like Kenny G. At the same time I suffered for years trying to play low “C”s on my flute, while the footjoint was almost falling off loose, and I thought it was me. Ditto clarinet regulation.
LOL
- Matthew Simington
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2018-04-16 02:59
The green clarinet kid will probably be playing circles around most of us in a few years. He has good ears and is playing the melody, the embellishments, and the rhythm very true to the musical genre he probably listens to and enjoys. He is already a natural musician of taste and discernment.
I suspect that he has not listened to a great variety of clarinetists old and new and in different musical styles. Some commentators on the YouTube have complained that he sounds more like he is playing soprano sax than clarinet but that may well be because he has heard sax playing much more than clarinet.
Somebody should send him performances by Bechet, Bigard, Goodman, Shaw, DeFranco, Jimmy Hamilton, Eddie Daniels, Alvin Batiste etc. as well as Ricardo, Martin Frost, Sabine Meyer, Harold Wright, Cahuzac, Anthony McGill, Alfendi Yusuf, Andy Ottensamer, etc., and let him reach his own conclusions. He probably ought to be studying with a good studio player who has plenty of experience playing all types of music. As for "Hot Cross Buns," tenor sax man James Carter said in a master class I attended last year that the one thing he hated most in band class was having to play that dreadful song. He wanted to play Chu Berry and Don Byas tunes.
As for the future, I wouldn't worry about it. Did you notice the vast number of YouTubers who took the time to listen to the green clarinet? How often does our instrument attract that kind of attention? That alone might be enough to make Buffet and Yamaha put out some green clarinets of their own. If Buffet makes a green R13 I like, I might even buy one if the price is right. The future is the future; it will not be like the present, and we all have to get used to that.
Post Edited (2018-04-16 06:42)
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2018-04-16 04:15
I've read this post several times. Is it possible that Speculator Sam included the link to "Spencer camp" as an example of the "good" which can come from not blaming your equipment, etc.?
To me, the video is a great example of a musician who isn't only learning from teachers, but is also listening and mimicking. I think more musicians should do that (in addition to normal studies). As long as a person produces the sound, style, technique that they're going for...I usually appreciate their efforts.
Personal experience makes me believe that "equipment-blame" is infectious, and usually doesn't occur until folks are taught to do it. ;^)>>>
Wynton Marsalis' band came through and gave a master class at the local University. Parts of it were open to the public. It was great. However, later that evening, his band performed at a cultural event, and I was very disappointed by the saxophone player (whose name I am purposely omitting). The saxophone player made a big show of not being able to get his reeds to work at our 7000+ feet elevation, and after a solo, he'd jump up, break the reed and throw it somewhere else on stage...an act he did repeatedly throughout the performance. I could understand his frustration - because it is tough to play here until you get used to it, but I could never understand the lack of etiquette/professionalism at an otherwise formal tuxedo/gown event.
Fuzzy
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Author: Speculator Sam
Date: 2018-04-16 04:16
Spencer camp's improved a lot, he's grown up now
@GBK one does not "magically" improve just because they're playing on expensive equipment. Of course, there's a fine line between a student instrument/entry-level equipment that functions well enough and cheap garbage that's not worth fixing. If someone hopes to audition for a world-class orchestra, then yes obviously they'd need pro. gear to prevent being laughed off the stage.
The absolute beginner that hasn't even gotten past the Accent on Achievement books, Rubank Elementary, or equivalent, shouldn't be blaming the equipment for their poor playing. Unless they dropped the mouthpiece or the instrument's in disrepair, then the greatest improvement comes from a long bout of practicing.
As long as the instrument facilitates what the player's capable of doing, then the instrument shouldn't be to blame. The student Michael Lowenstern masterclasses here is rocking a Vito bass, as he's clearly at a college-worthy skill level.
@jordan.1210 that's a heck of a story. You're lucky to even own so many instruments, let alone even have a pro. instrument. I concur, as long as the instrument's in good repair and can facilitate what you're capable and going for then the instrument shouldn't be blamed.
If you want a fatter sound on bass clarinet and have been diligently playing for 10+ years then yes a pro instrument would be the next step. Personally, I play a Selmer 1430LP bass, but all the altissimo notes work well and although it has that infamous low clarion B & C intonation issue, which all instruments have intonation issues, it functions and be take what the player knows and expresses it. Put the bell out some and loosen those lips for those two notes and move on with your study.
@Mart74 ah advertising does make it seem that way. In the world of Weightlifting, for example, all pro athletes rock either Nike Romaleos or adidas Adipower shoes. Beginning lifters, however, shouldn't blame their entry-level olympic-lifting shoes for their poor technique and lack of core strength, they should do their plank exercises and work with a coach when possible and just practice smarter.
Martin Frost gets displayed playing a Buffet with Vandoren V21 reeds and every impressionable gullible teen, I was one too, now thinks that that's the secret to playing beautifully. Let's not mention the fact that he's played since he was 8 years old and is now 47 years.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2018-04-16 04:42
Fuzzy,
All the sax players in the Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra are terrific players and know the instrument well. Maybe the guy you have in mind didn't have any Legere or other synthetic reeds in his case. I'm sure some of the other sax players probably suggested he bring some (or try them if he hasn't) the next time he has to play at heights in thin air. Years ago I was used to playing clarinet in my home town of New Orleans (high humidity below-sea-level) and San Antonio, TX (dry climate and a little above sea-level) and when I played a gig on the roof top of a new shopping center in the upper-
reaches of Santa Fe, New Mexico, I felt like I had been paralyzed and could no longer feel the reed vibrate. I wasn't theatrical in response but just sort of withered away for the duration of the performance. So I sympathize with him. If he has to play in that unfamiliar environment again, he'll probably be prepared.
Sherman Irby, Ted Nash, Walter Blandis, Jr., Victor Goines, and Paul Nedzel make one fine sax section in that band. And several of them are no slouches on clarinet either.
Post Edited (2018-04-16 06:09)
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2018-04-16 08:41
Seabreeze,
I agree with your statement about the abilities of the Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra. That's why I omitted the name. I have great respect for that group, and have attended a handful of their performances in NYC...even though they don't play too close to the style I normally follow - they are amazing, and they are also wonderful and patient in speaking with folks after the performances. Top notch people, and great educators.
As per your experience in Santa Fe...I had a similar problem when I played in New Orleans for the first time - my reeds went all mushy and caused me quite a problem. After a week or so, I finally figured out what works for me. I simply need to step my reed hardness up about 1/2 step. Then, my setup plays just like it does with my softer reeds "back home."
When Tim Laughlin played at the Evergreen Jazz festival in Colorado a couple summers ago, he didn't do anything different with his reeds between New Orleans and Evergreen, Colorado, and played beautifully. It still amazes me!
I watched Dan Levinson perform down in Denver three years ago, but I never thought to ask him if he did anything different with his reeds between NYC and Denver. He sounded great (as always) and played both clarinet and C Melody saxophone.
One of the New York clarinetists I know (during informal jams, etc.) Will do a "reed test" for his "problemed" reeds. He presses them into a wall until they break about 1/2" off the tip, then he says, "That's what I thought...it didn't pass the test."
;^)>>>
Fuzzy
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Author: jordan.1210
Date: 2018-04-16 10:30
@Speculator Sam I just picked up playing bass last year, but if I keep it up, I might look into getting a better one. Most of my instruments were also gifts from my parents, luckily they are pretty financially well off and support my music hobby (obsession?). And if you think 3 clarinets and 3 saxes are a lot, I'm scared to share the amount of ocarinas I have :P
It's kind of a shame that so much importance has been put on having the best gear and not on actual playing ability.
I was with my sax group tonight and we are preparing for our concert in a few weeks. One of the other tenors (I play mostly tenor for the group) was asking for help on the part where he glissandos into the high altissimo since I am the person known for being able to do these "screams" in the group Link (example at about 1:00 on bari) He was thinking in getting the same mouthpiece as me (Dukoff D6) in hopes of being able to do this. I suggested working on overtones and technique first before investing in the mouthpiece, since I didn't think my mouthpiece helped me do it that much. Interested if it did, I replaced it with my 3d printed mouthpiece that was modeled after a Selmer T20 and although my range wasn't nearly as good, I was still able to do what he wanted to. I've also tried doing these glissandos on bari, bass clar, Bb clar, and a friend's alto and I was able to replicate it pretty well to an extent, so I think it's me and not my tenor (King Super 20). Funny enough, I think this "skill" came from being a clarinet player who has worked to increase my altissimo range (comfortable range is to A6 but I've been able to get up to D7 pretty consistently on good days, which is kinda pushing musicality limits). If he really wants it and can afford it, go for it, but I'm pretty sure he can do it without the new mouthpiece.
Post Edited (2018-04-16 10:58)
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Author: jordan.1210
Date: 2018-04-16 11:45
I'll be honest, as long as I have an instrument that works like it should, I'm happy. Being on a budget, I'd be happy with a decent Chinese instrument that works (which many would automatically avoid) or a vintage student horn (I do my research online before I buy though). I said this before, but my sop and bari saxes are Chinese and they play just fine for what I use them for. I've been thinking of getting an Eb sopranino clarinet and a C clarinet recently and I'm most likely going to try the well-received Chinese ones over any pro horn. Maybe I'm just weird that way
Post Edited (2018-04-16 11:46)
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Author: Speculator Sam
Date: 2018-04-16 20:00
Jordan that's fine. Gotta love Leo P. What you said is sound, but harmonic/throat glissando's an advanced technique so maybe getting a mouthpiece that's better facilitate that would be better. If you and/or your friend's playing clarinet, then ask Walter Grabner through e-mail and he could suggest a mouthpiece for you. Vandoren pieces also work for these things and they also make saxophone pieces.
The OP was that many beginners, adults too, sometimes blame their instrument for not sounding good. You have it all figured out Jordan. Since you are advanced though, you'd definitely benefit from a pro set-up. As long as you have a repaired student-intermediate horn with a decent aftermarket mouthpiece, then you have everything you'd need to facilitate your advanced playing. Well, when you can afford $40-50 on just a mouthpiece... I digress.
Fun fact: usually the quality of intermediate instruments don't justify the additional thousand dollars. Do your research before buying any instrument and make sure it's checked by a repair person when it arrives at your door.
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The Clarinet Pages
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