 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: clarinet713
Date: 2001-06-13 01:55
Are orchestras really biased as to where a person went to school? I was always told that it didn't matter where the person went-if they could play well they were in. I have also heard that large music schools mass produce low quality musicians (I don't mean to offend anyone, this is just something someone has told me). Why should the school matter? I mean, your teacher matters-but who cares where they teach you?
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-06-13 02:50
clarinet713 wrote:
>
> Are orchestras really biased as to where a person went to
> school? I was always told that it didn't matter where the
> person went-if they could play well they were in.
Well, that's certainly not true in some orchestras in Germany, where women are actively discouraged. It's also not true when there's no curtain between the applicant and the selection committee. They're human, and apt to make some decisions that aren't 100% "performance-based". Just like the rest of the world. If someone applies for any job, their education - and <b>where</b> they received their education - is looked at and judged. Some of the better (or more prestigious) schools have a more rigorous general music program which emphasizes not only performance but other aspects that are equally important to someone wanting to be a true "musician" - theory, solfedge, rhythmic education, history, etc. It <b>does</b> make a difference., and of course you'll be submitting a resumé and a repertoire list, along with performing.
> I have also
> heard that large music schools mass produce low quality
> musicians (I don't mean to offend anyone, this is just
> something someone has told me).
Well, University of Michigan has a very large music program - and produces a pretty fair number of both performers and educators.
> Why should the school matter?
> I mean, your teacher matters-but who cares where they teach
> you?
Those "name" schools didn't get there overnight - they have a reputation for producing fine musicians - not a guarantee, just a reputation. Their entrance requirements may be more rigorous, they have a larger talent pool to draw on, the taleent pool attracts some of the better pedagogues and performers, and vice versa.
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Author: clarinet713
Date: 2001-06-13 03:27
Would you say that the graduate school is more looked at rather than the undergrad school?
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Author: William
Date: 2001-06-13 03:36
The more education you have, the better your credentials will look. PHDs and DMAs get a lot of attention ( even though I have know some "advanced degree players" that really couldn't play very well) Also, it is sometimes more important "who" you know than "what" or how "good" you can actually play. Sad, but true. Good luck!!!!
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Author: clarinet713
Date: 2001-06-13 03:54
I find that discouraging but not enough to make me stop what I am doing! I guess it's kind of like anything else in this world........
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2001-06-13 21:36
At least where there are blind auditions that are not "fixed," it doesn't matter where you went to school.
However, there are many more ways of getting a place than just winning an audition. When Daniel Bonade was teaching, he would often get calls saying "send me your best pupil." I'm not sure where I read this recently, but I think it was in the interview by James Gholson with Robert Marcellus, where this story was told about how Marcellus got the Cleveland job.
When Harold Wright went from the National Symphony to Boston, I think there were "pro forma" auditions, but everyone knew that Wright had the job (and deserved it).
For the top jobs, you have to have a track record, anyway. It was known for years that Wright was just getting seasoning in Washington until the next big position opened up. Larry Combs did the same in, I believe Montreal, and he then tried out for substantial periods in Cleveland and Chicago to see how he meshed with the other players.
Important teachers know where the lower and intermediate level jobs are about to open up. If you have a big talent and good training, you go to, say, Stanley Drucker. His students have told me he will hardly teach you a thing about how to play the instrument, but he will give infinite wisdom on how to play in an orchestra. One good word from him to a search committee is worth any number of auditions. (I imagine Mark's son has heard similar stories about Franklin Cohen in Cleveland.)
On another level, a degree from, for example, Curtis or Juilliard gives you credibility - at least you have proved you can play the instrument. I've known some "Juilliard finger jocks" who have never made a note of music, but I've never met a Juilliard grad who couldn't play the notes. I *have* met the occasional performance major from other conservatories who couldn't cut it.
Prestigious credentials can get people to take you seriously. From there on, you have to do it yourself.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: judy
Date: 2001-06-13 23:41
Juilliard's literature makes it very clear that they will ask you to leave if you don't measure up to their qualitative standards. While they can ask you to leave at any point (provided they have given you the warnings they describe in their policies), the second year jury is a major decision point. I would guess that the other major conservatories have similar standards/policies. It explains why these grads "can play the notes."
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Author: Karlheinz
Date: 2001-06-14 11:58
Mark Charette wrote:
>
> Well, that's certainly not true in some orchestras in Germany,
> where women are actively discouraged.
Having a daughter who will probably join a german orchestra in her fututure, this is of cause of great interest for me. However, I cannot confirm what Mark wrote so generally about (some) german orchestras. I know the appalling story by Monique Buzzarté but this was one instance from one german orchestra - the Munic Philharmonic - which might be a little bit special. And I believe, that you will find personal discriminations of any kind in orchestras all over the world. In the past, decades ago, where major orchestras consisted of men only, it was indeed very difficult wor women to get in. But today, the constantly growing share of women is at least an indication for no more sexual discrimination in this respect. Orchestras seek to be succsessful, thus trying to present what the audience wants and this also has changed. And orchestras are not democratic organizations but more or less commercial ones where few people make staff decisions. The difference to usual companies is that you don't see their employees on stage.
Karlheinz
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-06-14 12:48
I am referring specifically to the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra and Munich Philharmonic.
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