 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-09-26 20:58
Can someone either make a video or if they know of one in existence, can they post a link to it as I'm trying to get my head around how it works.
http://folkmusic123.com/images/Clarinets/selmer_10_mazzeo_2.jpg
What I can see (on the above photo of a 10S Mazzeo model) is there's an adjusting screw on the LH2 ring key that opens the Bb vent when the thumb is off the thumbplate, but what I can't understand that with such a solid linkage, why isn't the Bb vent being forced open or the thumbplate and LH1 ring key being forced up when LH2 or the RH ring keys are held down?
This is what I can see - the Bb vent is sprung closed and is also held down by the rocker that links the Bb vent pad cup to the overlever from LH1/thumbplate. When the left thumb is off the thumbplate, the Bb vent is then opened as soon as the LH2 and RH ring keys are held down.
Is there some kind of flexible link in this mechanism I'm not seeing? This is why I'd like to see a video of it working.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2017-09-26 21:11
That screw actually has a small pin held out by a spring. When LH 2 or RH 1-3 is closed the pin and spring put pressure on the rod with the pad cup so that it will open if the thumb plate is open.
-Jdbassplayer
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Author: el gitano
Date: 2017-09-26 21:13
Hi Chris,
the connection on the right side with the screw in your second foto has a spring inside. So it moves the Bb vent only when the thump key is opend.
Claus
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-09-26 21:23
I thought there had to be another spring there somewhere to make it work - I assumed the adjusting screw on the LH2 link was solid and not a coil spring.
I know the clutch on the Bb trill key is there so the mechanism can be engaged and disengaged depending on its position, but as I don't see any Mazzeo model clarinets in the UK, it's not easy to see their exact workings from photos as opposed to working on one.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-09-27 00:47
How much increase in spring tension is there on a Mazzeo model compared to a standard Boehm system? I can only assume the spring tension is significantly higher.
And on Bundy Mazzeos with the arm running over the LH2 ring key vent, is the Bb vent open or closed sprung?
http://collections.nmmusd.org/Clarinets/Mazzeo/6115/6115upperkeys.jpg
Apologies for the twenty questions, only I understand what the mechanism does in relation to the special fingerings for the throat notes. But without a working example to hand, the cogs in my brain are all turning and crunching trying to figure it all out going just by photos alone.
Normally I'm good at mechanical reasoning and can picture the workings involved, but this is proving to be a bit of a challenge.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: ned
Date: 2017-09-27 11:04
These things must weigh a ton!
Here's Sammy Rimington's (originally) 12 key simple system - now made in to an 11 key - check the missing side key, top joint.
He loses nothing by doing it...look here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQZAQZvcNOk
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Author: Ed
Date: 2017-09-27 16:11
Years ago I had a teacher who studied with Mazzeo and had a set of these instruments. He also had a bass clarinet with the mechanism. I don't recall them being overly heavy or tightly sprung, but then again, in those days I just might not have known any better.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-09-27 21:41
Thanks for that - I bet it has to be set up spot on and the springs balanced well for it to work correctly.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2017-09-28 00:10
Chris: actually, I think it's pretty robust. There's only one spring, which opens the alternative Bb hole when the rings are depressed. So it's the same issue as articulated G# - which can stick shut, but just requires the spring to be strong enough. The only actual adjustment is on the "beam" that pivots to hold the Bb hole shut when the thumb is pressed - but really that just comes down to having the right thickness of cork under the thumb end of it, so it's no more problematic than getting the correspondence set up correctly.
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Author: donald
Date: 2017-09-29 02:03
I've owned a couple of the student versions by Bundy, and I agree with John Peacock. In fact once set up the mechanism is surprisingly trouble free. Of course it is a nuisance not being able to leave fingers down for throat A. Otherwise a pretty darn good idea.... I've got a spare one of these (Bundy) under my couch if you want one to try out. Dn
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Author: Wes
Date: 2017-09-29 23:00
This week, I have a full Boehm Mazzeo here for adjustment from a friend who inherited it. It even has duplicate low Eb keys! While it only has four adjustment screws, it is more difficult to get working than a conservatory system oboe. It has a wonderful sound and great wood but the mechanism is a nightmare. The Selmer company must have been brain dead when they were building 13,000 of the Mazzeo clarinets. The many alternate Bb2 notes available are no better than the basic pinch Bb and the same for the A2. Mazzeo must have been a great salesman as well as an inventive player from Boston. He was a teacher of one of my teachers. Good luck on getting them working reliably!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-09-29 23:54
I wouldn't mind a lower joint from a full Mazzeo model simply because it has the LH low Eb lever and also the articulated F#/C# key.
I think the Ab/Eb key is linked to the C#/G# key as well, but that will only cause problems with altissimo E as you'll get an F instead with the standard fingering.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2017-09-30 03:39
How true! Interestingly, this instrument was overhauled by a repair person in a nearby smaller town using single skin pads and French cement. I have no idea what that cost but I have replaced the small pads with Ferree's good double skin pads, as a minimum. Don't play the high E with the RH fourth finger on the Eb/Ab key! Yes, it is a complex instrument that could well be in a museum.
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Author: DSatz
Date: 2018-03-07 01:37
I still play Mazzeo system, and have Bb/A/Eb instruments here.
Does the original poster still have any questions about the mechanism? If necessary, I could even make a video, I suppose.
--best regards
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2018-03-07 02:13
David,
Which Selmer model is your Mazzeo? Is it series 9, series 10, or something else? Do you know if Selmer ever made a 10G with the Mazzeo mechanism?
When I visited them in 1966, Joe Artley said they were considering a 10G Mazzeo but I never followed up on that.
Do you find that the clarion register tunes or voices any better (fewer subtone grunts, for example) in the Mazzeo since the register vent doesn't have to do double duty and produce the throat Bb?
Post Edited (2018-03-07 03:07)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2018-03-07 13:58
I would still like to see a video of how it works on any level Mazzeo from Bundy, Signet through to 10S.
I'm not likely to ever see one in the UK, but seeing a video of how it works will clear up some things I can't quite picture.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: donald
Date: 2018-03-07 14:25
Mine is not in playing condition right now so i can't help sorry. Not quite sure what Wes is on about.... I had an older Bundy Mazzeo that played fine with no adjustment issues. The B flat on it (using the Mazzeo fingering) was a pleasure... I just couldn't get used to not being able to put fingers down for throat A.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2018-03-07 15:54
Without the thumb on, putting the RH fingers down will give a throat A on Mazzeos - only the open G is the note you can't put any fingers down for, so a G-B interval is all fingers off - all fingers on.
I sometimes use the lower trill key on its own instead of the throat A key for a throat A. I find a G-A trill easier using that key than trilling with my left index finger as my left hand isn't anywhere near as mobile as my right hand.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2018-03-07 16:33
Chris:
> I would still like to see a video of how it works
> on any level Mazzeo from Bundy, Signet through to 10S.
???
I posted a video of this (a Bundy) in 2017, which you saw [see above]. I removed it from Dropbox since then, but could repost if you didn't keep a copy.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2018-03-07 17:52
Sorry John - I completely forgot how it all works in that time I last posted on here and this thread was revisited.
It's the spring loaded adjusting screw I forgot about.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: DSatz
Date: 2018-03-15 05:08
Hello, seabreeze. The instruments are Series 9*. The set was my high school graduation present in 1966 when I thought I was about to attend New England Conservatory and study with Mr. Mazzeo. (Things didn't work out quite that way; I ended up starting the following year, by which time he had retired from the Boston Symphony. So I studied instead with his successor in the orchestra, the late Felix Viscuglia.)
The last official Selmer series to offer the Mazzeo mechanism as an option was the plain Series 10, but not the 10S or 10G to the best of my knowledge. For those (or at least for the 10S), a Mazzeo "conversion kit" was apparently available from Selmer--or at least that is the best information I've been able to find all these years later. Such kits are no longer available, unfortunately.
--best regards
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Author: DSatz
Date: 2018-03-16 16:53
Attachment: Side view of Mazzeo model Bundy (1).jpg (240k)
Attachment: Side view of Mazzeo model Bundy (2).jpg (202k)
For the original poster, let me see whether I can describe how it works in words and some still photographs that I have.
[1] The goal is to stop using the register key to produce throat Bb, but instead, always to produce it via the third RH trill key--without having to reach for that key for most passages. (You'd still use the trill key the normal way for any actual A to Bb trills.)
[2] For this purpose, that trill key is separated into two pieces: The pad cup and pad are on an "arm" that is sprung shut, while the remaining, long part of the trill key (the lever that you press to open the pad) is exactly the same as on a standard Boehm clarinet, including the spring arrangement. So now if you use that trill key, your own effort is still lifting the pad--but it's because the key that you're pressing is raising the separate "arm" that has the pad cup on it.
The whole rest of the mechanism is about the control over that pad--either causing it to open when it should, or preventing it from opening when it shouldn't.
[3] The LH thumb key isn't a "thumb ring"--it's solid and padded on Mazzeo clarinets, with its own spring to keep it normally open. But that feature (like the ringless bell) is a separate idea of Mazzeo's, and has nothing intrinsically to do with the Bb mechanism.
On any Boehm clarinet, the thumb ring connects to the first LH ring through a pair of connected levers; pressing the thumb ring lowers the first-finger LH ring. The Mazzeo mechanism exploits that mechanical linkage for a further purpose, which is to hold the pad for the throat Bb closed (via a cantilever) whenever the first LH ring is closed. This also means that the Bb pad can never open while the thumb key is closed.
One end of the cantilever rests on the pad cup for the Bb trill key, while the other rests on top of the pair of levers between the thumb key and the first LH ring. (There's an adjustment screw at the pad end of this cantilever, which is a critical adjustment for a Mazzeo clarinet.)
[4] The key that has the pad cup and pad for the Bb tone hole (can I call that the "Mazzeo key" just for the moment?) extends so that a small part of it is within reach of the second LH ring. A miniature, spring-loaded plunger is attached to the second LH ring key, and when the second LH ring is closed, that plunger puts pressure on the extended piece of the "Mazzeo key".
So overall, the mechanical logic works like this: If neither the LH thumb key nor the LH first finger are down, the cantilever isn't holding the Bb pad shut--so closing the second LH ring will cause the Bb pad to open. And of course, the normal bridge between the LH and RH joints closes the second LH ring whenever the RH rings are pressed.
So that's how you normally produce a throat Bb: with the LH A key plus any combination of RH rings and/or the second LH ring--and possibly other keys if that makes life easier for you (e.g. a scale across the break in any flat key).
But if either the LH thumb, the LH first ring or both are being pressed (i.e. for anything below open G), the Bb pad won't open because of the cantilever. The little spring-loaded plunger attached to the LH second ring will exert some pressure, but it simply compresses and doesn't do anything.
The same thing happens in the middle and upper registers--since the LH thumb key is always closed, the Bb pad can't open.
--The attached photos are from a Bundy Bb. The first one shows the spring-loaded plunger and the "Mazzeo key" more clearly, while the second one gives a better view of the padded thumb key and the cantilever.
--best regards
Post Edited (2018-03-16 16:57)
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2018-03-16 17:48
This link any use?
https://patents.google.com/patent/US2867146
Chris J
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2018-03-16 19:37
It's the spring loaded adjusting screw on the Bundy and the extra clutch on the full Mazzeo that I couldn't quite see, so that all makes sense.
I'm considering buying a used Bundy Mazzeo model just to see it all working when it's in my hands and when it's all taken to bits in front of me as that's how I roll.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2018-03-17 00:16
Chris: that's what I did before. but dropbox is always filling up, and I need the space back. It would make more sense to have it archived here for future interest. I'll try to figure out the upload limit and degrade the video to fit within in.
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Author: donald
Date: 2018-03-17 04:53
It's the "miniature spring loaded plunger" that must be hard to visualise....
Think of it like this- a metal pin (about the size of a point screw) that is sprung with a tiny coil spring so that it will retreat into its hole when it has solid resistance, but will open the mazzeo b flat key when the only resistance is the spring holding the b flat key closed....
it sounds more complicated than it really is, and (on my Mazzeo bundy) worked very reliably
dn
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Author: donald
Date: 2018-03-17 04:55
Dsatz-they are great photos, thanks, but neither shows the pin/plunger from the side where it contacts the key....
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Author: DSatz
Date: 2018-03-17 06:32
Attachment: Series 10 Mazzeo model (2).JPG (603k)
> neither shows the pin/plunger from the side where it contacts the key
Ah. OK, the attached photo should show you that. This is from a Series 10 Bb.
As a bonus, you can also see the "sliding clutch" which is not present on the Bundy models, since it was an emergency aid for players with the established habit of leaving RH fingers down when playing throat A, G# or G.
It was assumed that a Bundy user would be a student who would never develop that habit, since obviously it would lead to wrong notes being played.
When the clutch is in the normal (withdrawn) position (as in the photo), the Mazzeo mechanism functions as described previously. But when it is slid into place by pressing on the knurled end, the Bb trill key becomes rigidly coupled to the pad, as it is on a standard Boehm clarinet. Then the pad no longer opens unless the trill key itself is used.
This of course defeats the entire purpose of the Mazzeo mechanism, but it's better than not being able to play the clarinet at all.
--best regards
Post Edited (2018-03-22 02:17)
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