 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2018-01-16 07:51
... with the model badge missing from the top joint.
Without the badge and without stripping it down (as the owner needs to play it in the meantime even if it's way overdue a complete rebuild), what else will identify exactly what it is?
The barrel and bell aren't stamped on the back with the model numbers either as that's a more recent thing. I don't know the serial number.
What I do know for definite is the bell is chambered immediately below the socket, so I'm led to believe it's an RC Prestige because of that.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2018-01-16 07:52)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2018-01-16 07:56
From memory (so not 100% sure), the R13 has the cutout under the right hand pinky keys, the RC doesn't (including Prestige models).
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2018-01-16 23:29
Attachment: buffetrcbadge.jpg (151k)
I'm pretty sure the RC and RC Prestige have the cut-outs on the lower joint - the ones that don't are the E13 and C12, but the pro models and upwards do.
The more recent standard model RCs even have a badge like Prestiges.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: John Peacock
Date: 2018-01-17 00:57
I believe the lower joint on an RC is slightly longer than an R13. Just a couple of mm, but you can clearly see that there's more wood below the last post when you have them side-by-side.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2018-01-17 03:37
If my memory serves me correctly the speaker tubes are positioned differently.
The RC speaker tube is about 2 mm nearer the top than on the R13
On my 1963 R13 the distance from shoulder to centre of speaker is approx 17.3 mm but on my 1983 RC it is 15.3 mm
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: donald
Date: 2018-01-17 04:28
Do you have reason to believe the bell is not the original match to that clarinet? If not then it's an RC, very simple.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2018-01-17 10:13
>> I'm pretty sure the RC and RC Prestige have the cut-outs on the lower joint <<
I'm pretty sure they don't
I'm trying to check with someone who has an RC Prestige.
I remember being surprised that the clarinet didn't have them, asking about it and finding out it was that way on the RC... but I might remember wrong and confusing with a different model clarinet.
Does the clarinet your asking about have the cutouts? If not then you have an answer already.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: donald
Date: 2018-01-17 10:18
The RC Prestige and some of the later RCs are the only Buffets in the pro range with the chambered bell. It's that simple.
Post Edited (2018-01-17 16:17)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2018-01-17 11:45
Attachment: rcprestigebadge.jpg (44k)
This Buffet Prestige does have the cut-outs under the RH pinky keys - I pointed that out to another player who has an E13.
I assumed it was an R13 as it's a former military band instrument, most likely bought at the time B&H still supplied the armed forces and production of B&H clarinets ceased (the owner also has a set of 1010s but he prefers not to use the Bb wherever possible because of its dodgy tuning). But removing the bell showed it had the chamber just below the socket.
If anyone has the joint lengths and speaker vent distances from the top tenon shoulder for both RC and R13, then that would be useful as this isn't the only Prestige from the '80s with the model badge missing I've seen.
More recent ones with the badge use the sprue from casting to secure it into a blind hole cut into the recess. If you want to make the older ones more secure, then soft solder a nickel silver wood screw to the underside and drill a blind hole into the joint, fill that with superglue or epoxy and pop the badge in place. Then melt some black wax to fill in the gaps around the edge (see attachment).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2018-01-17 11:51)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: donald
Date: 2018-01-17 16:21
"I assumed it was an R13", EVERYBODY knows what they say about assumptions, right?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2018-01-17 17:24
Attachment: r13_pres_reg.jpg (198k)
This is an R13 Prestige from the late 90s.
Though supposedly R13 and RC have 66mm and 65mm length barrels respectively, so depending on what the difference is maybe the tone holes are "lower" and that 1mm difference makes at least some of the reg tube difference.
Can measure other things later on that same clarinet.
Post Edited (2018-01-17 17:29)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2018-01-17 22:00
Donald, this topic is about identifying an R13 or RC, not about being RC (arsey) which is how your comments are being interpreted.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2018-01-17 22:15)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: donald
Date: 2018-01-17 22:46
But it's really obvious you have an RC? That's what i don't get... Btw I've owned 2 RC clarinets and they both had the cut out under the right hand pinky keys
Post Edited (2018-01-17 22:49)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2018-01-18 02:16
DONALD - IT'S NOT OBVIOUS TO EVERYONE!
If there are NO OBVIOUS INDICATIONS as to what it is going by appearance alone, then it could be ANYTHING.
It may be patently obvious to someone who knows what they're looking for, but not everyone does. Some RCs don't have a chambered bell, some do. Speaker vent distances and joint lengths that are a few millimeters different from one another aren't obvious unless you have BOTH models there to do a comparison.
IF YOU HAVE NOTHING TO GO ON, THEN YOU HAVE NOTHING TO GO ON.
Hence the reason why I'm asking such questions so I can find out and so anyone else with the same query can also find out.
If you're that clued up on them, then give me the details I want and many more besides instead of sniping.
Simple.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2018-01-18 02:31)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: John Peacock
Date: 2018-01-18 02:19
Here are measurements from a 1982 R13 and a 1979 RC. This is slightly pre-prestige era, but still may give an indication.
Distance from centre of register hole to top of joint: 15.0mm (RC) 18.5mm (R13)
Length of lower joint (excluding tenon): 238mm (RC) 235mm (R13)
And yes, both have the same cutouts under the keys.
Donald: I can't see it's "obvious" that Chris's instrument is an RC. You're basing that on the bell, and who knows if it's original to the instrument.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2018-01-18 02:27
And as the Festival was also available at the same time as the R13 and RC Prestige, if that has the badge missing and no other obvious indications as to what it could be, what differences will the Festival have in comparison to the other two?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: John Peacock
Date: 2018-01-18 03:05
The Festival is supposed to have the register hole higher than the R13, so if you measure a low position for that, you're safe with an R13 diagnosis. If it's high, then the only way of discriminating RC and Festival that I know of is the length of the bottom joint. Or at least: I've never read that this is longer on the Festival, but I've never had the chance to measure one. Still, some BB readers can presumably supply the numbers.
There's also the chance it's a DG, since that was the other model with the silver insert that was around at that time. No idea what their distinguishing characteristics are.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2018-01-18 03:20
The DG is an easy one to spot as the ring key tops are hollow/countersunk/dished instead of radiused like all other Buffets. They also have a voicing groove half way along the barrel bores (if they still have the original barrels that is).
The problem with a lot of military band instruments is parts can often get mixed up and you can end up with a mismatch of joints, barrels and bells or if a bell or barrel was damaged and a replacement one was bought but of a different model (likewise with Selmer saxes having the wrong crooks - I've seen a MkVI tenor with an SBA crook and other MkVIs with ill-fitting crooks). Anything is possible.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2018-01-18 09:31
Just verified with someone who has an RC Prestige (probably from the late 90s or early 2000s). I remembered correctly, it does not have the cutouts under the right hand pinky keys. I guess if a Prestige model clarinet doesn't have them then it's definitely an RC and not R13. The other way around might not be a sign for anything since John's RC seems to have them.
By the way, mixing and matching parts, not only barrels and bells, but even the main sections, is something that is done occasionally when choosing clarinets at Buffet. It's entirely possible (though maybe not very likely) that an importer decided to order all RC type bells if they wanted, even on R13s.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: John Peacock
Date: 2018-01-18 18:03
Attachment: rc_cutout.jpg (126k)
clarnibass: this is odd. I recently had a 2010-vintage RC Prestige on trial, and you can see from the attached picture that there are cutouts under the keys.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2018-01-18 22:03
Right - I just had the chance to compare said Prestige clarinet with no badge against an R13 Prestige as one player has just bought one. All the other Buffet players have E13s and the rest of the clarinet section have B&H Imperial 926, B&H 1010, Peter Eaton Elite, Leblanc Sonata, Selmer Privilege and a Yamaha YCL-34II, so not much to compare it against.
This is what I saw - both of them have the cut-outs under the RH pinky keys as is the norm on pro Buffets.
The speaker key on the one without the badge is much longer, therefore the speaker vent is nearer to the top tenon. I forgot to check the length of the lower joint.
I overhauled a standard model RC back in November and that too had the cut-outs under the RH pinky keys.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2018-01-19 08:54
Attachment: rc_pres.jpg (213k)
>> have the cut-outs under the RH pinky keys as is the norm on pro Buffets.<<
Not exactly. I checked with three players, all have an RC Prestige. They all don't have the cutouts under the right hand pinky keys. One is from late 90s or early 2000s, one is new from last year and one I don't know.
Attached a photo of one of them.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2018-01-19 23:09
RC stands for Robert Carrée who was Buffet's acoustician/designer.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
