 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: clarimad
Date: 2017-11-28 02:23
I'm looking for information/videos about repadding an old boxwood clarinet that has salt cellar key cups.
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Author: dubrosa22
Date: 2017-11-28 03:53
I thought they were referred to as 'saltspoon' keys?
Terry McGee, flutemaker and historian, has a short description of repadding these types of keys on his excellent website:
http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/repad.html
Kelly Roudabush has a much more comprehensive, great visual step-by-step of the process (archived) here:
https://web.archive.org/web/20150213203127/https://www.kellyroudabush.com/purse-pads
These 'saltspoon' keys were very popular in the first hallf of the 19th century. They replaced the 18th century 'flap' style key and are definitely easier to seat as they sort of just squash into the tonehole more or less. I guessing any woodwind player worth his salt could fashion his own quite easily at home and afix it to the keycup with wax as was the tradition.
I've got two saltspooned flutes (an 1820s English fake Monzani 8-key and a 1840s English Metzler 8-key) needing repadding but haven't got 'round to them yet, so I've not yet grappled with the problems of making leather 'pad purses'.
I'm sure that the difference between flute and clarinet saltspoon pads was not very much.
Good luck
V
Post Edited (2017-11-28 04:05)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-11-28 04:00
The pads fitted to the old 'salt spoon' pad cups are made in a drawstring bag fashion with the circle of leather stitched around the edge, then filled with hemp, wool or cotton fibres and then the threads are drawn closed and tied off to seal up the bag. Then flatten it out to shape it with the threads at the centre of the back and then shellac them into the pad cups.
You can use modern soft leather pads and float them in on shellac if that's easier - check by dry fitting a leather pad whilst the key is in place.
In rare cases, some old woodwind instruments have bowl-shaped countersinks instead of the usual bevelled type with a crown or a simple flat filed onto the joint, so with the bowl-shaped countersinks, the pads also have to be spherical to work with these.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repair Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: BarryTones
Date: 2021-04-29 21:50
Thanks dubross22 for these two resources for help with Purse Pads, the Nivison link and the McGee one. Thanks for your own tips here as well.
Here is a further link from McGee which really goes into minute detail:
http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/Purse-pads_or_Elastic-Balls.htm
I'm not looking forward to re-padding 13 keys with this olden method, but I hope authenticity will count in the end.
Post Edited (2021-04-29 21:54)
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2021-04-30 19:54
I've repadded a couple of salt-spoon instruments with modern pads by putting a small rolled up cigarette paper ball in the cup and then filling the cup with shellac. The pad fits neatly over this and floats into place easily. The paper ball prevents the pad from sinking into the cup and also provides a pivot point which aids in pad seating.
Tony F.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2021-04-30 23:02
Another approach when using modern leather pads if they're too thin is to glue a domed cork disc on the back of them, then shellac them into the pad cups.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repair Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2021-04-30 23:44
I've always used stick shellac for padding needs on all my instruments. However, I've recently been looking through all the bboard posts - and felt I was the only person left still using shellac, as most people use stick glue or George's glue, etc. So - I've been sitting here thinking I might want to move away from shellac.
Now, I run across this post and see two of you recommend shellac for saltspoon padding.
Is there a reason to use shellac on saltspoon pads/cups vs the other glues?
I ask simply because I am on the fence about whether to try non-shellac for various things (I've actually still been using shellac on joint corks and key corks too!)
I'd like to catch up to with the times, but want to do so with an understanding of the what/why involved.
Thanks!
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2021-05-01 21:17
I use shellac for pads but find I get better results on joint and key corks with contact adhesive.
Tony F.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2021-05-01 22:04
I use natural shellac for cork and leather pads (and in the rare instances I have to use skin pads), but I use hot glue for synthetic or plastic-backed pads as it's molten and sticks to them at a much lower temperature and doesn't melt or distort them.
For key corks and tenon corks I use contact adhesive. And on tenons it helps to machine the grooves or waves completely smooth to achieve full contact on both surfaces as grooves/waves only offer minimal contact with the cork strip. Yes they have more surface area for the adhesive, but contact adhesive is applied in a very thin layer and won't fill in the voids, unless the cork strip is also grooved to mesh perfectly in the grooves which it never is.
In the olden days when shellac was used for tenon corks, the grooves offered a much greater surface area for the shellac to bond to, then the tenon corks were stuck onto the flat surface when the grooves were filled with shellac. Same when using hot glue for tenon corks, but contact adhesive is much better provided it has a smooth surface to bond to.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repair Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2021-05-02 19:43
Thanks Chris!
Quick follow-up question...
To remove contact adhesive - do you cut out the cork and then use a solvent to clean it off, or do you scrape/pull the old adhesive off?
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2021-05-03 08:11
>> I've been sitting here thinking I might want to move away from shellac. <<
It doesn't have to be one or the other. I've tried many different glues and shellacs and settled on mostly one type of hot glue and one or two types of shellac, and use each depending on the situation. There are specific types of both hot glue and shellac I didn't like at all. The specific type can sometimes make more of a difference than whether it's shellac or hot glue. Unless you have a different reason to "move away from shellac".
For tenon and key corks I've been using mostly contact glue for a couple of decades, but in the last few years I occasionally use super glue for the very small ones.
>> To remove contact adhesive - do you cut out the cork and then use a solvent to clean it off, or do you scrape/pull the old adhesive off? <<
For tenon and sax neck corks I use pliers to scrape most of it off (these happen to have the best shape to scrape tenon corks), and a solvent to remove too. For key corks usually a regular scraper. For plastic clarinet tenons be careful what solvent you use (even alcohol supposedly damages some plastics). In between I often use a stiff brush in the dental micromotor to remove particularly resistant parts, and this also gets between the thin grooves of some tenons, etc. The solvent is mostly to remove any dirt and grease that might prevent gluing the new cork.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2021-05-03 18:18
It depends how well the contact adhesive has bonded to the surface of the keys or tenon slots - sometimes it will peel clean off leaving littl in the way of a clean-up operation and other times it's stuck fast which is largely down to the preparation or if the adhesive reacts with the metal which can happen.
I've seen key corks peel clean off from silver plated keys and the glued surface on the key cork had turned black as had the silver plating which was due to the adhesive reacting with the plating. Also on some sax crooks where the lacquer had been removed and the crook cork peeled off leaving the bare brass looking pink or green.
Buffet tenon corks don't give up much of a fight and can usually be peeled off as soon as you lift up an edge, then the whole tenon cork peels off in one go.
To remove really stubborn key corks or adhesive that won't budge easily with gentle persuasion (eg. using your thumbnail), I will remove as much of the cork as possible, then either use the edge of my scraper more like a burnisher to lift, nudge or roll the adhesive off rather than simply and blindly scraping at it as that will mark the surface. Then using acetone will help remove every trace of adhesive it's in direct contact with, but only on metal or wood as acetone will harm ABS and similar resins (Reso-tone and Resonite) or plastic as well as some lacquers (nitrocellulose and similar).
For key felts, I soak them with acetone and leave them to sit and let the acetone do its job, then the felts will usually peel or even drop off when the adhesive has been dissolved, but some can still be more stubborn than others. Acetone will also remove epoxy, superglue and shellac from surfaces where it's safe to use solvents.
Ispropyl alcohol is safer than solvents on all materials. If in doubt, use isopropyl to degrease things. It will also clean up shellac residue.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repair Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2021-05-03 20:14
Chris,
Thanks so much for the detailed information. Your guidance has helped verify a few things for me, and also filled in a few holes. I have never used acetone working on a clarinet before - but it sounds like something I might like to have on hand and try out.
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2021-05-03 20:27
Thanks, Clarnibass!
I appreciate your opinion about "doesn't have to be one or the other" - after reading so many posts about the various glues for pads, I was beginning to feel that I was "doing it wrong."
However, knowing so many techs do still use shellac helps me to realize that there isn't necessarily something all-around "better" out there. So, for pads, I'll probably continue using shellac - because that's what I'm used to and it works very well for me.
Due to the advice received in this thread, I might try other glues (mainly contact adhesive) for key corks and tenons. I've tried contact adhesives before and wasn't too pleased with the results, but I always used a specific brand of adhesive - perhaps I'll try a few different brands and see if there's one that works better.
Thanks again,
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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