 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-06-07 12:56
I wrote in an OLDER Thread:
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I am still NOT clear on how exactly the Triton Resistance Soldering Tool works???? I can see how you could place a pad cup BETWEEN them. BUT, if the pad was already on wouldn't this possibly burn/damage the pad? I had thought that you would just touch the TIPS to the top of the metal of the Pad Cup --- to conduct electrical HEAT to the Pad Cup (e.g. to reheat - shellac/glue where pad cup-key has been re-mounted on the Clarinet)
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Can somebody explain? many thanks.
Best,
mw
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Author: Bill
Date: 2001-06-07 13:24
An electric current only flows through the cup, i.e., cup heated, when the handle is squeezed hard enough to turn on a switch.
Intially you can position the electrodes across the cup, and nothing will heat up. The electrodes are held in place, across the cup, by a spring compressing the electrodes. So, you can remove your hand and the electrodes remain in touch with the cup. When you are ready, you activate the switch to heat the cup, with a slight squeeze. Release to open the switch, and heat is no longer generated, even if the probes are still touching the cup.
I believe John Butler said either a 5 count or 5 seconds is enough to heat the cup, using the high voltage (6 volts) transformer taps. I think there is greater risk to pad and other damage using a torch, but maybe less risk using the tip of a soldering iron. How long does it take to heat a cup with an iron?
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Author: ron b
Date: 2001-06-07 19:08
Mark -
Bill has explained its use very well.
I'd like to mention as well that the main thing you want is a good contact before you apply current. The tool looks like it will easily do that. The idea is to avoid 'sparking' which has the potential to cause tiny pits on plated keys at the contact point. As J Butler has pointed out in an earlier post, it only requires four to five seconds to heat a cup to the required temperature. The tool looks to be fast, convenient and certainly not messy. And -- it eliminates the dangers associated with an open flame :]
- ron b -
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-06-07 20:47
OK, I think I have it! Many thanks.
Best,
mw
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Author: Bill
Date: 2001-06-07 21:19
I just got the Ferree's L60, also know as the Blazer Stealth Z-100, torch. It uses Butane fuel which doesn't come with the torch. It's easy to hold, can be used in any position, and has a stand. Unlike a cigarette lighter, it has a nozzle which focuses the flame. I think it should work very well for pad work. The more expensive model has an adjustable fuel/air supply, but this one does not.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2001-06-08 02:46
Wow! 2500 degrees! If I'm not mistaken that's up into the silver soldering/brazing range... uuhmmm, I'd do a bit of trial and error on scraps first. That thing could burn a hole through anything in its path and ignite other things around it in no time.
What's the price tag on the torch? I haven't priced soldering guns lately but I don't think they're outrageous. Good 'ol fashioned adjustable flame alcohol lamps cost around five to seven dollars at jewelry supply shops.
- ron b -
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-06-08 05:15
Right on the price, Ron. Of course, using an alcohol lamp to heat a pad on a key that's ON the clarinet is a piece of work, at least to me. The attraction here was that you could aim the flame very specifically, etc. YES, the 2500 degrees scared the living you-know-what out of me! mw
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-06-08 05:45
That temperature is partly why I use a cooler Bunsen burner (with a diameter constricter) flame.
mw, did you read my yesterday's post in the old thread?
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-06-08 06:15
I see you did read that mw.
Perhaps it needs clarification that the Triton thingy heats ONLY the key cup, hence softening the glue. It can't burn a pad.
With any flame, if heat is applied AFTER a pad is installed (which I rarely do) then care must be taken to direct the flame (with a sort of 'glancing blow') so that it heats the cup without burning the pad edges (or corks on adjacent keys). That is easy with practice.
The amount of heat applied with all of these devices is a matter of timing. I use about 3 seconds for a (skinny, reduced) bunsen flame.
And yes, I normally leave the bunsen on the bench. If I do wish to heat a key while it is on the clarinet I hold the key open and move the clarinet joint to the flame. If it is a bass clarinet I sometimes lift the bunsen and move it to the instrument.
Some technicians have been iritated with poor/eratic performance with lower quality Taiwanese torches and the way two hands are needed to light some of them.
"Pocket Micro Torch" - by Blazer was considered a good one.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-06-08 07:03
I realize now that there are at least 3 Blazer brand torches. I believe the one that the repair technicians like is that on
http://www.contenti.com/products/soldering/114-800.html
I think it can be left on without pulling a trigger, has both butane and air adjusters for superior flame and heat control, and has an 'automatic cut-off'.
(Ferree's markets it - or used to - as L56, no L55)
I think the others are far cheaper models.
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Author: Terry Horlick
Date: 2001-06-08 15:23
That <a href="http://www.contenti.com/products/soldering/114-800.html">Blazer Micro torch</a> is the one I have used in my office for years. Using it on the clarinet while assembled is possible if you are very skilled with it. If you don't have a touch better than a dentist's you will produce Grenidilla charcoal. I have about 15 years experience of using it almost daily for silver soldering and wouldn't let it get within 20 feet of my clarinet. It is a must have if you are modifying the key mechanisms or fabricationg alternate keywork. You can remove those pesky pad cups from the key work in just seconds.... a real time saver!
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Author: Bill
Date: 2001-06-08 16:26
I showed the little Blazer torch to my teenager. He was immediately impressed, and asked "what are we going to cut with that?" I THOUGHT "dummy" it's for delicate pad work. Well with a 2500 degree narrowly focused flame, who is the dummy?
So, now I will use my old alcohol lamp and Triton soldering tool for padding.
I am curious about the temperature of a bunsen burner. Ferree's Tools sells several model, and some have special nozzles to focus the flame (Gordon mentioned this feature associated with his). Does this make the flame hotter? How about natural vs. propane gas and flame temperature?
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-06-08 17:41
Gordon & others, THANK YOU !
(( The Blazer appealed to me because of the cost --- it really is cheap --- whereas the Triton is (fairly) expensive ))
..... I will have to think & justify to myself the cost of the Triton. All things being equal, it seems to be the best bet ... particularly for the amateur repair person.
[ Gordon's last comment really drove the nail in for me ... in spite of eveything .. the Triton will NEVER have a flame! : ) ]
Best,
mw
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Author: Bill
Date: 2001-06-08 19:55
I asked John Butler how to handle cups that were larger than the spread of the Triton. John's response was "Just touch the graphite points on the key arm of the key cups. It works just fine." Thanks, John!
http://www.dxmarket.com/micromark/products/82111.html
Now as soon as I get the pads I ordered, I can put it to the test.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-06-09 05:59
It seems that the actual flame temperature is rather irrelevant in that it must be considered alongside the speed at which heat is conducted away by the object being heated. See:
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/msg01270.html
There is no way any of these small flames could ever bring a key anywhere near 2500 degrees F. However thin sterling silver wire (melting point 1760) can be melted in a bunsen flame.
Regarding my bunsen.... I just made a constrictor to go on the top of it to reduce flame diameter, so it is easier to keep away from adjacent key corks etc. Ferree's has a bunsen with a skinny tube that looks appealing but I am staggered at the price for such a simple item.
I think if I was investing that much in a flame, especially if I was not a full time technician, I would consider a Blazer model with both gas and air adjustment, providing a versatile flame that could also do light silver-soldering. (I doubt the Triton would have the heat to do silver soldering)
Note that the latest Ferree's catalogue shows a different model from that pictured in the URL of my previous post.
An advantage of the bunsen over the blazer is that it is very cheap to keep running all day. An advantage over the spirit lamp is that the flame is very steady, and probably hotter. A spirit flame always goes upwards, whereas the bunsen flame can be directed and the torch flames can be directed even more so. If you play a strongly directed torch flame against a key on a clarinet it may be easy to burn items in the 'flight path' of the flame. However with a lightly directed bunsen flame that curves it is quite easy to avoid timber etc. The best of both worlds may well be the fully controllable torch which I assume is capable of being turned down to a very narrow, lightly directed flame. I've actually never used a Blazer but I am now inspired to buy one to try.
You can't light fireworks with a Triton. 
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Author: Terry Horlick
Date: 2001-06-09 06:39
MW,
If you are an amateur doing your pad work do you really want to spend the $147.97 on that Triton you will use once? Why not go to <a href="http://www.radioshack.com/category.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F005%5F006%5F002%5F004&Page=1">Radio Shack</a> and get the soldering gun for $12.99 and then just cut off the last 1/4" of the tip. This will do just about the same job as the fancy-shmancy tool. You can even put down another $2 or so and get a replacement tip to change it back to a soldering iron when you are done. (Click on the <a href="http://www.radioshack.com/category.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F005%5F006%5F002%5F004&Page=1">"Radio Shack"</a> link to see the soldering iron... no I don't sell for them, go to any hardware or electronics store and get a cheap soldering gun, it's all the same.) If it doesn't put out the same wattage as teh fncy one then you just leave it on for a half second or a second more... viola! If you don't like it you are only out $13, then go for the other one.
Just IMHO, Terry
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Author: Bill
Date: 2001-06-09 10:06
I thought about the soldering iron, already having a couple models that I could use. I may still try it as an experiment. I have two issues that may not be issues at all. The main one is how many hands do you need to do the work? Soldering typically requires three hands , but the Triton clamps on the cup. The second is how long it will take to heat the cup. The higher the wattage of the iron, the quicker, but the greater risk of damage.
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Author: Fred
Date: 2001-06-09 12:35
I recently saw (can't remember where . . . ebay? . . .Ferree's . .web ??) a small device for $9.95 that used an inserted butane lighter for the fuel source. It redirects the flame to exit 90-degrees to the lighter, but I don't know if it does anything other than that. Has anyone used this device and have anything to report about it?
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Author: Bill
Date: 2001-06-09 13:18
The description fits the Blazer torch(es) mentioned above, except for the price. The Blazers are good quality, and worth paying a little more.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-06-09 13:20
Terry, I agree.
Bill be careful about using the term 'soldering iron' instead of modified 'solder gun'. It would be a pity if somebody misunderstood and applied a solder laden soldering iron to a key cup.
In case ther is a misunderstanding, the Triton does not hold itself on the key cup - it is just gently spring loaded. You have to hold the Triton to pull the heat switch trigger.
How many hands? 2. One to hold the instrument or key. One to hold the gun. Either you are heating the cup AFTER placing the glue blob inside, and BEFORE you 'float' the pad on the glue, or you are heating the cup AFTER you have installed the pad and BEFORE you modify its alignment. You never need to heat and mess with a pad or glue at the same time.
Time: A few seconds, depending on the glue melting point and the size of the key and the temperature of the room. Technicians who work on saxophones with a solder gun appreciate at least 140 watt, but some of those keys are far larger than clarinet keys.
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Author: Bill
Date: 2001-06-09 14:36
Will the soldering gun leave a mark on a silver plated key?? If not, I think I'll return the Triton, and use my gun.
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Author: Terry Horlick
Date: 2001-06-09 15:52
If your hand slips in the least when the power is on it very well may make a tiny arc (spark) that will leave a pinpoint mar in the finish at the point applied. Such a mark may be too deep to polish away. When I watched a repairman doing this (with a cheap soldering gun) I could not see any marks on the key... and the horn was lacqured!
In any case you should be aware that it is possible to leave a mark when doing this. BTW, I have watched, but not done this.
Terry
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Author: Bill
Date: 2001-06-09 21:15
You need three hands or a vice (to hold the cup) to remove a pad using either the soldering gun or the Triton. That is, one hand to hold the cup, one hand to hold the gun, and one hand for the tool to remove the pad from the cup. If you use an alcohol lamp or fixed bunsen burner the "third" hand is not needed.
My 140/100 watt soldering gun came with some extra tips. I melted solder on the "regular" soldering tip to make sure the gun was working. I took what I think is called a cutting or slicing tip and split the tip apart. I placed the tip ends across the cup and pulled the trigger. Not enough heat was generated to melt the old glue (waiting up to 30 seconds). WHAT DID I MISUNDERSTAND??
I put the Triton probes across the cup, squeezed, and by a two count there was a small puff of smoke, glue melted, and pad easily removed.
I used the Blazer torch to drip some French cement into the cup. I let it cup cool, and then tried to melt the cement with the soldering gun. It didn't work. The Triton melted the glue "one two".
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-06-10 02:04
It sounds like the sawed off soldering gun has the ability to screw up the key. I know all about replacement keys with vintage horns.
I had a lengthy lesson today on springs & using my propane torch to heat the pad cup on the instrument with "glancing blows". (I think Gordon once referred or used that type of language too) I was taught to use the principle that heat rises. Therefore, we should aim the propane torch in the RIGHT direction ... bring the clarinet joint to the flame presenting it at angles which avoid the flame "visiting" keywork, pads, cork, etc, e.g. where the named parts are _higher_ than the pad cup being heated. Also consider mounting order of keys regarding when to apply flame.
On the other hand, I still see the Triton as being fast, not nearly as dangerous, and you can work on any pad cup in a jiffy. To me, it sounds like it makes working with finicky types of pads much easier.
Best,
mw
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-06-10 03:44
mw: An excellent elaboration of my term "glancing blow". Burning things can definitely be avoided with a flame - except on piccolo, maybe Eb clarinet, and inaccessible sax keys.
Bill: "You need three hands ......". I beg to disagree. If you either have experience, or you look closely for pad movement or slight glue emergence (both probably a little too late) then you camn put the heating device DOWN after heating. THEN do what you want to do while the heat is still there.
Bill: 100/140 gun won't work? Weird. For plasic cutting a lower temperature is required than for soldering. I wonder if the cutting/slicing tip is made from a special alloy with resistance such that heating is reduced. I would try mounting 2 copper (cupronickel has worked for me) rods instead of the shortened tip that does not work. I think more technology than we think may go into these tips; after all, the soldering one has a fat end which would have lower resistance therefore less heating.... I think they maybe make the tip from a different alloy from the rods leading to it - low rod resitrance and high tip resistance.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-06-10 05:42
Gordon, my "professor" (a well-known band tech) told me ... "this glancing blow, heat rising stuff doesn't work near so well with Saxophones!" : ) Best,mw
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Author: Bill
Date: 2001-06-10 09:59
Gordon: Yes, you are correct. A pad can be removed with two hands. Three is comfortable for me, but a slower process - having to deal with the vice.
I agree that the compostion of the gun tip may be a factor in the heating equation. Before I "messed up" another tip, I thought I'd get your reaction. I'll try something else later today, as I'd like to return the Triton if the gun works. There is no doubt that the Triton does this job very effeciently, but I won't be doing enough padding to make it worth while.
The Blazer torch (Stealth Z-100) is a fuel guzzler. I admired the flame several times for short intervals, and melted one cup's worth of French cement, and it was empty. This is why Ferree's Tools recommends the L56 for professional use.
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Author: Bill
Date: 2001-06-10 18:36
I tried 12 gauge solid copper wire about 3 inches long with my gun. It didn't heat very well. I shortered the wires to an inch. It works better (140 watts selection) than the cutting tip I used intitially. I've only tried it on small cups, and I don't see how my setup will be able to do large cups.
Although the Triton is superior to my gun setup, I did notice some blackening of the cup. Probably should reduce time, particularly for the small cups.
Clarinet padding is so much easier than flute padding.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-06-11 00:39
Bill, did the cup clean up??? Or was the black damage to the plating. mw
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Author: Bill
Date: 2001-06-11 16:17
mw: The cup did clean up. Be aware that I'm working on an old Albert system horn. I have no idea what the keys are plated with, or if they are plated.
I decided to order the Ferree's Tools propane Bunsen burner (L12). It's discontinued. The Micro-Mark catalog shows a micro-torch and an optional attachment to convert the troch to a flameless heat concentrator. It looked like the perfect tool for padding, but it's no longer manufactured.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-06-11 16:41
Glad to hear the cup did clean up. No question you need to justify the Triton's cost. I think I can, but understand what overreaching is ... we all do it.
With the lesson I had on "glancing blows' on Saturday, I don't know how much you will really be gaining by going to the Bunsen Burner. Its a tad easier. I think (I am guessing and would love some clarification) that some one like Gordon uses a Bunsen Burner as his heat source of choice, oppsoed to the Propane Tank with a Fitting, which by the way is really cheap. (I bought a high-end pencil thin tip for $5-6 & a tank of propane for approx. $3)
[[ I would still like to find a way to do the "sawed-off soldering gun" but would only want to use it if i had a conductor material between the gun and the sawe3d off tips which would protect the plating of the pad cup. ]]
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-06-11 19:00
Now that I consider it, $5-6 probably was NO _"high-end"_ fitting for the propane burner ... (although) it was an "upgrade" from the $1.95 "on the shelf" at the local hardware store! : )
Best,
mw
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Author: Bill
Date: 2001-06-11 23:46
I mentioned that I inserted two short 12 gauge pieces of copper wire into the gun. It didn't heat the cup satisfactorily. Tonight I decided to file the "sides" of the round wire flat, so that it would have more contact surface. I found that one of the wires was coated with a dark gummy substance. Filing cleaned it up, and it works much better. Next I need to get betting lighting, and maybe stronger reading glasses so I can see what I'm doing.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-06-12 16:36
Wouldn't you think somebody would sell a "rig" already set up this way, or possibly with a fitting to go over the existing gun's apparatus?
Best,
mw
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