 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: echi85
Date: 2017-11-08 19:03
Does anyone know the actual tonal differences between these two mouthpieces other than pitch?
I've searched through previous posts but have yet to find a good answer.
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2017-11-08 21:20
Is there any reason to assume the difference wouldn't be essentially the same as the difference between 13 and traditional of other models?
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Author: echi85
Date: 2017-11-08 22:16
From what I could gather from previous posts, the difference in pitch is caused by a change in baffle of the mouthpieces. I'm wondering if this will greatly affect the tonal characteristics of each model. Does a B40 Lyre 13 play like a B40 Lyre traditional but only flatter?
I've only had experience with the 13 series, but I have a set of longer barrels I would like to use.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2017-11-08 22:50
The reason for scooping the baffle on the Series 13 Vandorens was to try to make the mouthpieces produce a "darker" sound. I'm not even certain that the lower pitch wasn't an unintended side-effect. By implication the Traditional blanks produce a "brighter" sound (for the same player on each model).
It really comes down to an individual player's comfort and preference. The Traditional and the Series 13 B40 Lyre *should* sound slightly different (I think "greatly affect" would be an overstatement), but which you'll prefer isn't something anyone can predict.
Karl
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2017-11-09 07:40
Kdk nicely sums it up. The relatively darker tone of the 13 series vs the bright tone of the traditional holds true for the B40 Lyre, in my experience. Also, like kdk, I have always believed that Montanaro and Vandoren's goal was to copy or create chamber shapes that just happened to result in the lower pitch.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-11-09 10:12
The mouthpieces in question are longer, thus they play flatter. It's just like the difference between a flute and a tuba. It's really that simple, the question is why? This, the length, surely does NOT darken the sound. However a larger bore can darken the sound of a mouthpiece, but also cause or create new options, depending on where the taper of the bore is located. For example the Rico line of mouthpieces their bore is a bit too small where the bore and the chamber meet, so the throat tones and some of the 12th's will be high and or out of tune. The ideal bore measurement at this spot is around .545" to .555". I think Rico comes in around .515" to .520." They have a shrinking issue with the material, so it varies. This is around a 32nd of an inch. In mouthpieces this is huge.
Now with the M13 compared to the BD5 that tunes to 442 is about or close to a 32nd longer, so the M13 plays flatter. Tes longer plays flatter, it's now a now brainer for people to understand. The bore on the M13 is also bigger.
OK if you must know or at least curious to know, the old Chedeville's and the early Kaspar's are about the length of the BD5, but a shade shorter in some cases. The bores are, or about .545" to .550". The chambers and baffles are all over the place, since so much handwork was done to them and often wrecked.
If you are still interested, Marcellus favored the #13 Kaspar's from Chicago and Cicero, which most of them were Chedeville's. Most of the Chedeville bores were #13. But the Kaspar family did drill out larger bores to #15. I have these measurements if anyone is interested, but they are kinda pointless unless you make mouthpieces. The Ann Arbor chamber and baffle areas were very shallow. However they project very well and can be adjusted. Some of the Cicero and Chicago Kaspar's are sadly too deep. Even so, if you have the right gauges, which I do and can measure with or less than a human hair, nail polish can correct some of these. A lot of people like these up close, but they do not project sometimes and the sound gets muffled as the distance increases from the clarinet.
In my shop I have shortened the M series mouthpieces for a few people and it isn't that hard to convert. You have to remove some of the tip until you get the right desired length, then simply reface the mouthpiece. Yes you have to put in a lot of work, but it is possible to bring the pitch up. This also corrects the pitch of the upper register from about 438 or so to 441. It takes 2 hours of work. Is it worth it.
Nope, buy the new Selmer. This mouthpiece is already correct. In 5 minutes I can get the new Selmer playing very close to one of the best mouthpieces you've ever played on. So screw Vandoren and buy these amazing Selmer's, but you have to find the right person to fix the resistance. I have my own line of mouthpieces so I won't mess with them.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2017-11-09 10:20)
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2017-11-09 16:00
Every time I’ve put a traditional and 13 series Vandoren next to each other, they are the same length.
So, no, they are not longer.
Post Edited (2017-11-09 16:00)
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Author: Dibbs
Date: 2017-11-09 16:12
Bob Bernardo wrote:
> ...
> In my shop I have shortened the M series mouthpieces for a few
> people and it isn't that hard to convert. You have to remove
> some of the tip until you get the right desired length, then
> simply reface the mouthpiece. Yes you have to put in a lot of
> work, but it is possible to bring the pitch up...
Why don't you shorten them at the tenon end?
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-11-09 18:30
DIBBS
My friend, this is A VERY GOOD question - This can throw off the bore measurements. which are .585" or so, some are .580" down to .565" to .560" then you have intonation issues and a totally wrong bore size. I prefer the bore at the end to be around .590" to help match most barrels. As you can see this would not match ANY barrels on the market today, unless you reamed out the bore of the mouthpiece. I have a reamer to do this, but making them is costly and in this case the reamer would hit that window where the bore ends and the baffle/chamber starts, putting a dent in the mouthpiece right at this intersection. So where the baffle and chamber ends and the bore ends there will be a huge mark, not a smooth transition into each other. The chamber/baffle won't be deep enough to match the the Vandoren bore. So you can do it but you will have to settle for a small Rico type of bore of maybe only .0515" or smaller.
So it is much easier and better to do this from the top of the mouthpiece, then just reface it and if needed make a minor baffle adjustment.
For those that do not know what a reamer is. It is very much like your standard drill bit, but it is tapered to specifications. I have 4 and only use 2 of them. One is a hand reamer and the other is for a drill press. They are pretty accurate and you don't have to sharpen them very often.
Therefore buy a Selmer. It measures great. But you have to get rid of the resistance.
I'm trying to help people here to get away from mouthpieces playing flat when we have the new Selmer's for about $100. I've tested these and the are really good. Try one out. For now if they are too stuffy and resistant use a softer reed until you find someone that can fix this, or call Selmer and ask them to call me and I will tell them how to turn a stuffy mouthpiece into something great in 5 minutes. I'm a good guy and I want them to make a really good mouthpiece. I don't mind sharing a few secrets.
I want music to be fun for everyone. I do not want to see people playing with bloody lips or sore lips, biting to reach the pitch. We don't have to do this or put up with this!
Now if your teacher says to buy a Vandoren M series, ask your teacher to call me first. My guess is your teacher will convert.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Dibbs
Date: 2017-11-09 20:33
Thanks, I didn't realise that there is a taper starting right at the tenon.
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2017-11-09 21:40
Bob said: "buy the new Selmer. This mouthpiece is already correct". The new Selmers are like trying to get a fast time at the Nürburgring in a dump truck. The Selmer rails make stock Vandorens look nuanced. I would agree that the facings are usually balanced (although you can say the same about Vandorens), but that doesn't mean it's a good design.
If you try a lot of Vandorens, you can find one that's pretty good and not have to send it off to be refaced (and the rails aren't an embarrassment). If you buy a Selmer, you're buying a mouthpiece that there's a 100% chance you'll need to send off to have someone finish it.
If you have a $100 budget on a mouthpiece, the dadario X0 and X5 are higher quality in material, design, consistency, and far superior in finish quality.
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2017-11-09 22:11
Nathan, with your experience and expertise on mouthpieces, would you be willing to weigh in on this issue of the 13 Series being longer or not? I would really value your input.
As far as the D’addarios, I would respectfully disagree. To me, they’re better in theory, but not in practice. Every single one I’ve examined has had rough edges that show they are 100% machine-made with no hand finishing. The hand finishing of the Vandorens IS a plus. Furthermore, for me, the best Vandorens play like the best mouthpieces available. I think that is reflected in the number of top-level players using them, as opposed to the almost none using the Reserve mouthpieces.
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2017-11-10 00:22
J.J.: Regarding the finishing surface of dadarios and mouthpieces in general, I don't think the slight rough surface is necessarily bad. There is actually a benefit to having a roughness to the internal surface (as long as it's consistent). Brad Behn's explanation comparing it to the roughness of shark skin that allows them to slip through the water faster is as good an explanation of this phenomenon as I've seen. When I reface dadarios, I do change the internal surface a bit, although it's more due to cleaning up after baffle adjustments and keeping a consistent texture/aesthetics than anything to do with performance.
There are plenty of fantastic players using Reserves, but the better way to look at it is to note the incredible quantity of players who would otherwise have bought a Vandoren. They're also a wonderful canvas for refacing (I received a text yesterday in response to the last one I refaced which read, " *4 letter word*, this one is nice!!!").
The 13 series Vandorens usually are slightly longer, although the difference in the chamber is more significant (especially in the effect on sound/feel). I've played plenty of Vandorens over the years of a variety of models in both 13 series and standard. Back when I used vandorens (before I started refacing mouthpieces), I had plenty of them refaced by a variety of people (Behn, Tim Wright, McClune, and others) and had at least one M13 Lyre shortened by 1 mm. I remember that 1) it didn't ruin the mouthpiece and 2) it didn't change anything in a significant way.
I agree with Bob to the extent that the 13 series plays lower than ideal and there are better mouthpieces out there. Although with a mm shorter barrel on most instruments is sufficient to bring the pitch up.
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