 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ssterling
Date: 2017-10-31 03:32
I've been playing clarinet as my primary instrument in the high school band for three years (after five of alto sax). I was taught single-lip embouchure since day one, and I've accrued a decent tone and steadiness with it that's gotten me high chairs in honours ensembles across the state. After recently visiting the music department of a local college, however, I came out convinced by the clarinet professor that double-lip was the way to go.
Thing is, I don't necessarily have an advanced embouchure or a perfectly steady air-stream or anything of that nature; i.e. I'm a beginner paling in comparison. Would switching to double-lip risk screwing up my already-established single-lip embouchure, making my upcoming college audition a blunder? Or would it be just something I could try and brush off if I dislike it after a few months or so? Thanks in advance.
P.S.: I've read post after post on the BBoard regarding double-lip embouchure, but there didn't seem to be much said by nor about those who weren't pros/'up there' or just started out double-lip to begin with.
Seth Price (Sabine Meyer wannabe)
ssterling@firemail.cc
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2017-10-31 03:56
If you have an important audition coming up then this isn't a good time to start experimenting with any major changes.
Clear of that time you can experiment, but ideally with some assistance from an experienced teacher (one who isn't bigoted in the single/double lip debate).
Physical parameters can affect things, e.g. a very short upper lip does not work easily with double lip.
I have been a double lip player virtually all my life and wouldn't change, but it is a very personal decision.
there seem to be quite a few players who reckon they can easily switch between the two modes, and I can't see that it would cause any damage to your existing single embouchure to try it.
Just not before an important gig.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2017-10-31 04:14
ssterling wrote:
> After recently visiting
> the music department of a local college, however, I came out
> convinced by the clarinet professor that double-lip was the way
> to go.
>
It's too bad he didn't offer a reason for having even brought it up during a preview visit. Was he teaching a sample lesson or was this just conversation?
> Would switching to
> double-lip risk screwing up my already-established single-lip
> embouchure,
No. It might improve it.
> making my upcoming college audition a blunder?
But, as Caroline said, not so close to taking college auditions. You should just concentrate on learning your audition material until they're over and you've been accepted somewhere.
> Or
> would it be just something I could try and brush off if I
> dislike it after a few months or so?
For many of us who play double lip it starts out as a temporary approach to fixing a specific problem. Some players then go back, applying what they've learned toward improving their single lip approach. Others find double lip more satisfying and stay with it.
> P.S.: I've read post after post on the BBoard regarding
> double-lip embouchure, but there didn't seem to be much said by
> nor about those who weren't pros/'up there' or just started out
> double-lip to begin with.
I don't think *everyone* who has commented in favor of double lip in past threads is a "pro/'up there'" - whatever that means. The fact is you won't find many American clarinetists (amateur, pro or in between) who started with double lip - that's not the way clarinet is taught in our public school band programs, which is where most of us in the U.S. started playing. Maybe some of our European members started with double lip or know players who did and will comment specifically about it.
Karl
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Author: ssterling
Date: 2017-10-31 04:57
Caroline Smale wrote:
> If you have an important audition coming up then this isn't a good
> time to start experimenting with any major changes.
It's all the way in May (seven months from now), but you're right.
Caroline Smale wrote:
> Clear of that time you can experiment, but ideally with some
> assistance from an experienced teacher (one who isn't bigoted in
> the single/double lip debate).
Seems like it'd be difficult to find someone without bias in their teachings, but definitely worth a shot.
kdk wrote:
> It's too bad he didn't offer a reason for having even brought it
> up during a preview visit. Was he teaching a sample lesson or was
> this just conversation?
Another visiting student brought up the topic. A majority of the college kids attested to it as well after having switched, so it didn't seem like it was just something that works for a select few people.
kdk wrote:
> For many of us who play double lip it starts out as a temporary
> approach to fixing a specific problem. Some players then go back,
> applying what they've learned toward improving their single lip
> approach. Others find double lip more satisfying and stay with it.
Never really thought about that. My embouchure is a little weird, anyway.
Thanks for your advice, btw.
Seth Price (Sabine Meyer wannabe)
ssterling@firemail.cc
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-10-31 04:58
A really cool friend of mine studied with Harold Wright and then Marcellus. A fast background. Harold played with a double lip and Marcellus played for a while with a double lip. My friend Steve Barta played for 50 years or so with the Baltimore Symphony and he switched back and forth depending on the pieces being played. Kind of interesting. So if he wanted to play a slow beautiful piece he might play with a double lip. Marcellus did not force him to play either way as long as his upper lip was strong.
I'm full time double lip. But if you practice using a double lip this will surely build up your upper muscles. As I tell most people doing this, use a mirror and put it on your music stand. So if you sound really good or really bad look at what your embouchure is doing. The key to having a really great sound is a very strong upper lip and a firm embouchure. This means that you are not biting. No teeth marks on a patch, no sore lips, no bloody lips after a few hours of playing.
To answer your question I think if you warm up playing long tones, low E, F those lower notes, with a double lip, starting soft then going to forte, then back to P, 30 to 40 seconds per note this will surely help your sound. You should feel some muscle tension with your upper lip. Now you are on your way to having a great sound. Your embouchure is correctly being set up. If your upper lip hurts, you are biting and stop then try it again in a few minutes after you relax a bit.
I'm not sure if you should convert completely. All of this depends on the high notes above C. If you feel comfortable attacking these notes well go for a complete double lip conversion. If not take your time and use the college years to master your sound.
There are surprisingly a lot of double lip players around. Pretty much all of them have very nice sounds so this is a plus for you to go after. You will sound better than most players with weak embouchures and who bite, mainly bite to hit the high notes. From many years of making mouthpieces, since 1984, when I see those patches on mouthpieces and I haven't heard the person play yet and I see bite marks from teeth digging into the patch I already know a new mouthpiece won't help them. I already know I will hear that closed, thin, tight, throat sound in the upper register.
Get that mirror, play long tones everyday, keep that mirror on your stand for the next 50 years. I promise you will have a sweet sound even if you play with a single or double lip or both; as long as the upper lip is firm and strong.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2017-11-01 12:42)
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Author: ssterling
Date: 2017-10-31 05:13
Bob Bernardo wrote:
> But if you practice using a double lip this will surely build up
> your upper muscles. As I tell most people doing this, use a mirror
> and put it on your music stand. So it you sound really good or
> really bad look at what your embouchure is doing.
I've never heard of that. Seeing how my facial muscles are working would be a lot more accurate than just taking a guess and trying to 'feel' it. I'll try that tomorrow.
Bob Bernardo wrote:
> The key to having a really great sound is a very strong upper lip
> and a firm embouchure. This means that you are not biting. No
> teeth marks on a patch, no sore lips, no bloody lips after a few
> hours of playing.
Having been entirely self-taught (and too poor to afford regular lessons), I think I might have jacked up some of the fundamentals of embouchure. The only reason I use a mouthpiece patch is to prevent my mouthpiece from getting those ungodly marks you see on any school-owned one, so I'm guessing I'm not building my upper lip enough and am compensating by biting.
And I'll definitely take your advice on the long tones. Much appreciated.
Seth Price (Sabine Meyer wannabe)
ssterling@firemail.cc
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-10-31 05:50
We all have wicked bad habits to overcome when learning to play such a hard instrument. I was kind of lucky and had braces on my teeth and hated the pain of my teeth vibrating on the mouthpiece so I put my upper lip over the teeth.
Little did I know at that time I was actually developing a really nice sound and a good embouchure!
As far as the mirror goes I started using one in the 9th grade at a music school called Interlochen Arts Academy in Michigan in the early 1970's and I still have one on my stand. By the time I left Interlochen I had the best sound out of the clarinet section and I got accepted into every school I auditioned for. I came really close to going to Eastman, but decided to go to Peabody, because that teacher had the best sound I'd ever heard. Gave me goose bumps. What a sound he had.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2017-10-31 06:03
I self-teach. I switched to double-lip about 5-6 years ago. I experimented with it a few times but when it quickly hurt I'd switch back to single-lip. During one experimental phase I noticed how natural double-lip had come to feel, and how I was picking up my horn and using both lips without thinking about it. So I decided to stick with it. Eventually the upper lip got calloused and stopped hurting.
A couple subjective observations. With double-lip my sound feels more controllable, in part because articulation also feels more natural. I feel like I can vary the start and end of notes fluently, and hit any note with good immediacy. I feel like I can tongue consistently faster. It seems like I can feel the part of the sound that's made by the clarinet vibrating and really bring it out, and also feel the parts of the sound that are me and inside me vibrating, and bring those out too. These are subjective, meaning, I can't really account for them, and maybe they're real or maybe they wouldn't hold up under direct measurement or 3rd-party evaluation.
Anyway, double-lip feels right for me. (R13, M13 Lyre, Vandoren purple-box 5's)
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2017-11-01 03:30
Philip, I see you are using VD 5s on your M13 Lyre - this may be in part why your upper lip got calloused.
I don't think it is inevitable or perhaps even normal, for the upper lip or come to that the lower lip to get calloused. It might indicate a need for heavy biting to close that reed.
For the past 40 years I have played on a VD Crystal A1 with mostly VD blue box 3.5 reeds, though now I am getting pretty old I am using more #3s and haven't in all that time developed a callouse on either lip.
I do take only a very small amount of lip, upper and lower, over the teeth, prefering to use a firm lip rather than the teeth for support.
The downside is that over the years I have developed quite noticeable embouchure lines around the mouth area.
30 odd years ago when visiting the Leblanc HQ in Paris I was greeted with the comment "you have a clarinet player's face"
Not sure if that was a compliment or not!
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2017-11-01 04:20
Hi Caroline. Those VD 5's are almost 50 years old now; I didn't play for over 30 years, and previously I'd bought a good supply. Compared to the modern reeds I've tried, those old purple box ones seem to be about 3.5 strength. Either strength designations have changed or passive aging unstiffened the old reeds as they sat in the box.
I have thin callouses on the insides of both lips; they almost never hurt, even after 3 or 4 hours of playing. I'm not conscious of any biting or even any significant effort of embouchure when I play, but that doesn't mean I'm not doing it. If one does something all the time it tends to become unconscious.
Sigh, I've got to get that software that was recommended to me to record myself (Corel Visual Studio Ultimate), which would provide good feedback for myself or possibly for others. I keep putting it off, and when I finally motivate myself to get off my butt . . . . I go practice instead.
I think I have a touch of clarinet player's face too.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-11-01 13:04
Philip, a 3 1/2 strength reed is pretty close to what I think I use. Caroline is on the money here regarding stiff reeds for double lip players. Those old 50 year old reeds may be on the softer side. As I recall I played on 4's, sometimes 5's, but I would work down the 5's using a reed knife and sandpaper.
I think what we all have to watch out for is playing above high C. We cannot bite to reach the pitch and we cannot play flat. This is the hardest part of playing with a double lip. Also there isn't enough music written above high C.
So what do you do? I played a lot of violin music. A lot of it is out of range, but it sure worked. I don't think we need really hard reeds, but just hard enough. With your mouthpiece the tip opening is only 1.01 so a 4 strength reed should be perfect. I'm at 1.05 and use a 3 1/2, or work down a 4 strength reed over about a week; breaking in the reed. Sometimes harder reeds last longer and play better up high. They can also have a warmer sound. Hope this helps.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2017-11-01 17:46
Hi Bob. C6 or C7? There doesn't seem to be any need for added pressure from C6 to C7 or even a ways beyond. F7 and higher does seem to involve (for me) some picky changes, and maybe jaw pressure is one; I'm still learning. In ascending, the double-lip technique seems doomed eventually to give way to a version of single lip where the *bottom* lip is withdrawn . :-)
Thanks for the info about tip opening and reed strength. A relatively stiffer reed does indeed seem to help that altississimo range, and so does a reed that's balanced just right.
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