 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: zhangray4
Date: 2017-10-29 21:57
I play with a double lip embouchure, which is basically when both lips curl over the teeth when playing the clarinet, upper lip too. I've been doing this since I've started playing the clarinet in 6th grade. Then I found out in my sophomore year that everyone was using single lip so I changed to single lip for maybe a few months. But I liked double lip better, so I can now play both double lip and single lip.
Starting this summer, I've increased my reed strength from Vandoren V12 #3.5 to #3.5+. At that time, I felt the #3.5 was too soft, and the #3.5+ was a little too hard. Now I think #3.5+ is perfect for me.
But as I start practicing more and more for college auditions and prescreening recordings, I've gotten to the point where I physically can't play double lip anymore. I try playing double lip for a while, and am forced to stop playing and switch to single lip, since my upper lip hurts so much when that happens. I think there is a cut in my upper lip (I can feel it with my tongue and barely with my fingers, and sometimes it stings). I sound much better on double lip: my teacher listened to me play both ways and said so.
The problem is this: it doesn't hurt if I relax my embouchure, but if I relax it, my pitch drops significantly. I'm playing a Vandoren M30 (which is probably pitched at 440 or perhaps even lower) and on the barrel that came with my R13 (66 mm).
Are there any experts out here who can give me some suggestions? Should I put some paper over my upper teeth? Is it my mouthpiece/barrel that's causing the problem?
Thanks!
-- Ray Zhang
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2017-10-29 22:30
If you play double lip and it hurts or tires you out abnormally quickly, something is wrong. Even for people who play single lip all the time, it's a great tool to check to see if the setup is working properly.
From what you say, the increase in reed strength is directly related to the pain and inability to play double lip for extended periods. The 3.5 should be plenty hard for an M30.
The M30 has a very long facing (the point where the reed and the mouthpiece touch and the curve begins is farther away from the tip). This is to help compensate for having such a relatively open tip (distance from the tip of the mouthpiece to the tip of the reed). While it decrease the resistance you get from the larger tip opening, it also adds flexibility that is substantial enough to cause issues with control.
If you're using double lip, you're generally not using as much lower lip pressure as others might, so you have to have something to help with general control and stability (which is probably why you felt the need to increase the reed strength in the first place). With double lip, it would also be more difficult to keep the pitch up because you're not using as much pressure on the reed (which will bring the pitch up).
If you want to keep using the M30 13 series with double lip, I would recommend investing in a barrel that is 1mm shorter.
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Author: echi85
Date: 2017-10-29 23:19
Nbeaty is on point. The only thing I would add is that you may consider resting the bell of the clarinet on your knees like Harold Wright did. It lessens the pressure considerably on your upper lip.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2017-10-30 02:36
NBeaty wrote:
> If you're using double lip, you're generally not using as much
> lower lip pressure as others might, so you have to have
> something to help with general control and stability (which is
> probably why you felt the need to increase the reed strength in
> the first place). With double lip, it would also be more
> difficult to keep the pitch up because you're not using as much
> pressure on the reed (which will bring the pitch up).
I have to disagree with this part of NBeaty's post. I don't think it's that with double lip you use less *lower lip pressure,* it's more that you use less *jaw pressure.* The controlling pressure, or strength, is transferred to the lips themselves while slightly raising the soft palate, creating more space inside your mouth. You shouldn't need to increase the strength of your reed to play double lip - in fact, many players find that double lip allows them to use less stiff reeds.
I've played double lip for the past 40 years. When my upper lip gets cut by my teeth, it's generally because I've been playing on a reed that doesn't vibrate easily. Sometimes the reed is too stiff, sometimes it's unbalanced, and sometimes the reed's profile results in stuffy response, and I'm compensating for all of those sources of resistance by tightening my lips more than usual.
I'm always suspicious when players talk about "relaxing" their embouchures. There is a certain amount of strength that needs to be applied around the reed (evenly distributed across the reed's width) by the lips. The suggestion, which I heard all my student life and still try to follow, is that you should try to use the *minimum* amount of pressure (applied lip strength) to the reed that's necessary to produce a controlled sound. If the lips go flabby, they lose control. If they pull unnecessarily tight, they damp the reed's vibrations too much and, at an extreme, close the reed. The key is to use the lips, not the jaw, to provide the pressure and resulting control. Use the teeth to provide stability under the lips.
Without hearing you play, I'd suggest that you go back to the #3.5 and concentrate on what muscles are doing the work.
Something else you might think about is your mouthpiece angle relative to your chin. There are many players who play successfully with the clarinet nearly straight out - almost 90° to the chin. But you may find that allowing gravity to do more of the work as the mouthpiece rotates toward your teeth, lets you apply less pressure with your lips.
Karl
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2017-10-30 02:48
I suppose pressure against the reed would have been a better way to put it. If you're comfortable with double lip, keep going with it. The benefits certainly outweigh the "costs" (which are debatable anyway) unless you have a particularly sharp upper tooth or something, which doesn't seem to be the case.
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Author: zhangray4
Date: 2017-10-30 03:32
Thanks for the suggestions all.
Karl, I do find that my reeds are stiff and not vibrating as they used to. I was concerned that I may have been applying too much pressure on the reeds. But when I use less pressure on the reeds, the notes go flat generally, but the sound becomes better, like it resonates better. So I'm not sure what to do. When I am saying "relaxing" my embouchure, I don't think it should be concerning because my teacher started me off on a Vandoren B45 13. Extremely open mouthpiece, even more so than the M30. So I believe I do have a strong embouchure: my lips are tight and firm when I play.
And as for reed strength, my increase in reed strength kind of occurred naturally. I was playing on Vandoren V12 #3.5 until I felt it was just too soft. So I moved up. I know the reed strength is kind of high though: is that a big problem I should be concerned about? And yes, Karl, I have tried going back down to #3.5 but I just can't. I would have to force my lips to be loose and flabby in order to not choke the sound. And the sound would be just way to edgy.
I really do wish I can try another barrel, but I never have enough money to buy anything as I don't get allowances...but that's for another story. Maybe I'll persuade my parents to go to a store and at least try a shorter barrel to see if that fixes my problem. Oh and one important thing: when I upgraded to R13 about a year and a half ago, I always tuned flat, but I was always fine on my E11 France. The guy at the shop said it was normal since a student horn usually tunes sharp. He may be right, but it doesn't solve my problem, as now I'm finally in tune at 440, but I have to work hard to get that pitch up. Not to mention my tuning B and C (B4 and C5) are usually sharp but some throat tones and altissimo notes can get flat if I don't work hard to bring it up.
-- Ray Zhang
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-10-30 05:08
Like Karl I've played this way all of my life. Most double lip players are around a tip opening of 1.03mm or so. Harold Wright was 1.01mm. Iggie Gennusa was at 1.03mm. I'm at 1.05mm. John Yeh is around 1.13 or whatever his RD5 is. A few other friends seem to be between 1.01 and 1.04mm's. No one in under this who I know. The magic number when I put facings on for double lip players is between 1.02 and 1.03. the length is around 34 to 36, depending on the persons lips and bite, such as someone with an overbite.
Gennusa once said to put as much mouthpiece in your mouth as possible until you squeak, then back off just a tad. This allows you to use as much of the reed as possible to get that warm sound from the heart of the reeds.
So maybe the M30 is not the match for you, because you are biting. Second, use more mouthpiece, third, play a lot of low long tones to find that perfect embouchure position. 4th, look at Bob Marcellus who played with a double lip embouchure but then went to a single lip and notice how much mouthpiece he takes in. When playing long tones start soft increase to forte then back down to p. Watch yourself in a mirror. when you hit that magic sound take note where your embouchure is, how you are breathing. When doing these, take note with regards to what sounded better p<F or F>P. Then ask yourself why as you are looking in that mirror. A mirror is your very BEST friend to achieve a great sound.
If you are biting maybe you are not using enough of the reed in your mouth so you are biting down at the wrong angle of the curve. Or the curve is not set right for double lip playing.
Double lip player can use a thin patch on the beak on the mouthpiece, where your teeth hit, but not way forward at the tip of the mouthpiece. I see this mistake all of the time. The patch to too far forward even for single lip players. This is wrong and can effect so many things, sound tonguing, your mouth may be too open, so this needs to be placed where your teeth are. Not at the front of the mouthpiece. Airflow hits this and backflow can happen if the patch is too thick.
If I were you, I'd first start with refacing or change the mouthpiece. I feel it is too open and too long of a facing for double lip playing. But that's me. I always had the best sound out of everyone growing up at Interlochen, then through college and now. Get a small mirror that fits on your music stand. Keep it there until you turn 60.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2017-10-30 05:13
zhangray4 wrote:
> Karl, I do find that my reeds are stiff and not vibrating as
> they used to. I was concerned that I may have been applying too
> much pressure on the reeds. But when I use less pressure on the
> reeds, the notes go flat generally, but the sound becomes
> better, like it resonates better.
If the sound really is better, the drop in pitch is probably something to deal with as a separate issue. If you've been biting the pitch up, it would explain your sore lip and fatigue. But your teacher is in a better position than anyone here to say if the sound is better or more spread.
In your original post you wrote:
> I'm playing a
> Vandoren M30 (which is probably pitched at 440 or perhaps even
> lower) and on the barrel that came with my R13 (66 mm).
You write farther down about working hard to keep up at A=440, so maybe your barrel or the M30 *is* causing the pitch to be too low. It's time to do some detective work about the pitch without relating it necessarily to your embouchure. First off, has your teacher tried playing your M30? Is she flatter with it than with her own mouthpiece? If so, the M30 is at least part of the problem. If not, you've eliminated one cause.
If there's a store in your area that sells barrels (increasingly rare even in big cities) that you can try, you could go with a pocket tuner and test your pitch with a 65 mm barrel, whether or not you intend to buy anything on that visit. If the pitch improves, you probably should give the store first preference if you later manage to put together the money to buy it. Even better, if your teacher has a 65 mm barrel that you can test with a tuner (most of us have at least one barrel that's shorter and one longer than the one we normally use), it will be even easier.
> And as for reed strength, my increase in reed strength kind of
> occurred naturally. I was playing on Vandoren V12 #3.5 until I
> felt it was just too soft. So I moved up. I know the reed
> strength is kind of high though: is that a big problem I should
> be concerned about?
Not necessarily. If your reeds lately have felt stuffy and unresponsive, the profile of the reed you're using may not be ideal for your fairly open, long facing. You can experiment with other reeds, or you can learn (it's not a quick process and ruins a lot of reeds) what to do to re-shape (adjust) the profile. Your teacher can help you with this. The reed needs to vibrate freely without stuffiness but also without closing even under a little too much embouchure pressure.
> I always tuned flat, but I
> was always fine on my E11 France. The guy at the shop said it
> was normal since a student horn usually tunes sharp.
This was once true and probably still is for entry level clarinets - the kind that are used in rental programs for beginners. I've never played an E11, but it isn't an entry level clarinet. Do you still have it? How long is *its* barrel. Maybe it was 65 mm (one way Buffet could make it sharper for students).
> Not
> to mention my tuning B and C (B4 and C5) are usually sharp but
> some throat tones and altissimo notes can get flat if I don't
> work hard to bring it up.
>
This tendency of Series 13 mouthpieces is one of the main reasons I gave up using them a year or so after they first came out. For one thing, I think they have deeper baffles to make the tone "darker," which gives a larger internal volume and makes the pitch lower. B4 and C5 can be brought down, if needed, by pulling the bell out a little. If you're in love with a Series 13 mouthpiece that produces flat throat notes, they can be sharpened a little by a skilled technician. But there are so many other mouthpieces available that don't produce flat throat notes that I'd personally avoid changing my instrument to compensate for the mouthpiece's pitch idiosyncrasies. Now, if it were a vintage Chedeville...
Karl
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-10-30 09:50
Some teachers are so strict! They should allow you to play around with an assortment of different mouthpieces and different openings and facings. I know you are in high school. Often these are hard times. The teachers usually have their best interests in you as a student. But mouth formations are so different on everyone.
You might want to consider this - warm up using the Vandoren mouthpiece and warm up with long tones as I said above, using a double lip. This will make your upper lip strong throughout high school and for college auditions. Remember to look into a mirror and notice that your upper lip tends to push down just a tad. So when you are playing with a single lip push down the same way with your upper lip and use a patch. This will still give you that feel of a double lip embouchure.
When you get to college look for that instructor who is wanting to work on your sound and doesn't mind if you change mouthpieces or not.
I just read on the board that Stanley Drucker has been using the same mouthpiece for 60 plus years. He bought it for $6! Well I'm kind of in favor of this! I feel it is OK to change mouthpieces sometimes. They warp, get stolen, dropped, something new pops up that is just amazing, things like that. But maybe keep the same mouthpiece for 10 to 20 years, once you find the right one. The one you feel is just great. If you want to play double lip in college go for it. I think you will be ahead of most fellow players if you do this as far as sound. What teachers want to hear first is a really nice sound. Then rhythm. So that very first note is so important. Of course even scales, articulation, the whole package. They are not looking for the perfect student, but someone they can fine tune into that elite class.
When you take your college auditions know your scales. 4 sharps, 4 flats, major and all the minors. Slur all of them slur 2 tongue 2. Also the chromatic scale is a must. And triplets.
Then play a piece you like. Master the hard parts. I promise they will not have you play the whole piece. They will let you play the beginning then they will stop you and ask you to play another movement or another hard area.
For example Debussy Premiere Rhapsody - They will want to hear the beginning slow part. Then the last page for sure, because the last page is so hard.
Copland - the slow part, they will stop you, then the whole cadenza, then the last quarter of the last page. Do not play the cadenza fast. Copland wanted it played as a jazz feel. I know players like Julian Bliss can double tongue it, but this is not what Copland wanted.
So find that special piece which you really like.
Practice your sight reading everyday for 30 minutes. Most schools ask for it. Mostly orchestral excerpts. Beethoven's 6th, Your teacher should assign some every week, as these are often your sight reading pieces. Some are so hard. You have to know them ahead of time. Such as Capriccio Espagnol by Rimsky-Korsakov, maybe Pines of Rome, Brahms's 3rd sym are a must to know.
Anyway, be really prepared the best you can. 4 hour practice days for the hard music schools. Capriccio Espagnol was on all of the music school auditions I went to. Eastman, Yale, you name it it was there. The one that caught me by surprise was Beethoven's 9th. You had to transpose it to C clarinet and I had just played it. There is a God! I think every note was sharped! It's either 5 or 6 sharps. Don't lose sleep over something like this. It won't show up. That was at U. of Michigan and all of those people are long gone. You may want to play Rhapsody in Blue, because very few people play it WELL. Take breaks, don't play 4 hours straight. 20 to 30 minutes at a time.
Build up your embouchure. Right now play on a tad softer reeds then work up to harder reeds as your upper lip can handle it. I think 3 1/2 plus is about right for an M30. 4 strength tops.
Write or call anytime.
Bob
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2017-10-30 11:43)
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2017-10-30 16:59
Given time, the upper lip can develop a good callous. Long tones and long practices, to the point where it hurts a little. If it hurts more than a little, take a break (or revert to single-lip temporarily).
When I switched to double-lip, one of my upper teeth was uneven enough that an inner corner descended below the adjacent tooth. At my request, my dentist ground off the corner, and it was a great relief. (And no charge.)
Bob, one trivial off-topic disagreement: I read here that Julian Bliss doesn't double-tongue. http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=309262&t=309262 Maybe somewhere else too. But this does not detract from your good advice about the Copland.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2017-10-30 21:16
You might look at the Robert Scott barrels that Muncy Winds sells. They are relatively inexpensive and would give you an opportunity to try a different length without going broke.
Try to keep the support of your thumb strong, which may allow you to relax the embouchure a little.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2017-10-31 04:04
I recommend not having too much upper lip wrapped in for double lip.
Just a smidgen and then develop the strength around the upper part of the embouchure to support and counter the pressure from the lower lip by musculature strength and not by biting.
It's tiring to start with, but stamina comes with practice.
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Author: zhangray4
Date: 2017-10-31 05:01
Thanks for all the suggestions. I guess for high school I'll just have to stick to whatever equipment I have, the reason being my parents will not buy anything for me now unless its approved by my teacher, who will probably might say no to shorter barrels and mouthpieces. The man just hates change, but you can't blame him really since he is quite successful. I'll try to work on more long tones, look at myself in the mirror, and try to curl less upper lip I guess. Thanks for the amount of information all of you give me. I'll take a look and see how long my previous E11 barrel was, maybe it was 65 mm who knows.
-- Ray Zhang
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Author: Ed
Date: 2017-10-31 16:10
While many are reluctant to change, if you are out of tune on a 66mm barrel it is not really a matter of choice, but necessity. Discuss all of this with your teacher and get his opinion.
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Author: zhangray4
Date: 2017-11-01 06:35
I followed some of the advices like playing long notes, looking in mirror, and especially curling less of the upper lip. And I opened a new box of reeds that don't play as stuffy. I'm happy to report that I sound much better, I don't have to pinch, and my intonation is much better. thanks for all the help you guys are the best!
-- Ray Zhang
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-11-01 12:29
Philip Caron - Hi! I am about 99.99999 percents sure Bliss double tongues. I've sat next to him when he plays. It he's not he has the fastest tongue in the world. Added, I was able to hear him play the Nielsen Concerto at the 2017 ClarinetFest. It was surely a remarkable concert. A day I will never forget. I would guess he can single tongue at or around 172. This is why I'm saying I think he double tongues. From sitting next to him and also hearing this concert well I could be wrong, but I don't think so...
So you have me curious and I will ask him. I have his email addy. After he studied with Sabine we went on to U. of Indiana, maybe he changed a few things there. He went to U.of Indiana at the age of 14 I think, it way of been 15 or 16. AFTER studying with Sabine. I won't say who he studied with, but his teacher and his students all order reeds from me. I'm trying to keep his private life toned down a shade. I can say he is a wicked jazz player. Sometimes I wonder if he'd rather play jazz more than classical. I can safely say that if you go to a concert he is extremely friendly and very approachable so talk to him. It's worth it. His circular breathing is so natural for him, I don't think he is aware when he does it.
Anyway, the subject of conversation doesn't really matter in this case of double lip playing. But thank you, I WILL ask Julian.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2017-11-02 04:09)
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-11-01 12:38
hahaha - One time Marcellus was playing on a crystal mouthpiece and Szell, the conductor told him not to use it for the recording coming up. Well Bob didn't know what to do so the night before the orchestra did the recording he painted the mouthpiece black. After the recording, at the airport, Szell went up to Marcellus and told him he can paint the mouthpiece any color he wants, but do not ever use it in my orchestra.
Long story short, Szell had a great ear. Maybe you can scratch off the name of the mouthpiece you like best with sandpaper, 400 grit should work, and if the teacher says anything, tell the teacher you were trying to clean it! You just might get away with it, unless the teacher has ears like Szell!
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: zhangray4
Date: 2017-11-02 02:16
Funny story Bob! That may actually be a great idea! Most of the branding on my M30 is faded so if I sand off the markings of my best mouthpiece, I don't think he will realize it To me branding means nothing anyways, as long as I can distinguish which one is the best for me. And trust me, I can do it without the branding lol
I still have a bit of the problem of pinching, although its gotten better. I'm sure a different mouthpiece will fix it, and if it does, I will have to thank you for that clever idea!
-- Ray Zhang
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-11-02 04:07
Thought you'd like the concept. I have this thing about people telling me what to use as far as gear. My issue is the M30 is too open and all of the M series mouthpieces are too long so we have problems with tuning. So playing double lip will be hard to master with this mouthpiece.
By the way, the recording was Capriccio Espagnol. I think you can still find the recording around. Maybe it's on youtube? I thought he sounded great! It's surely worth hearing it if you can find it.
Keep me posted if I can help you out.
B
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Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2017-11-03 22:32
Is your m30 a 13 series? I have found them hopelessly flat. Especially in the throat tones. On any clarinet I have those things play low. If I have a student put those on a Buffet E11 (low in the throat tones to begin with" they will be hopelessly frustrated. Flat is the enemy of double lip, you lose your ability to lip it up as far, if you play double lip. It's better to not even have to. Oh and don't get sucked into the idea of a harder reed is what you need either.
Tom Puwalski Yamaha and D'Addario performing artists
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