 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: LC007
Date: 2017-10-25 20:44
Hello Clarinetists,
I am having trouble understanding the pitch of my mouthpiece. I have a D'addario Reserve X5 which is apparently tuned to A441 and a VD B45 which is tuned to A442. So when I am practicing in front of my tuner, should I set the tuner to A=441 (or 442) and try to blow notes in tune at those settings? Or should I set the tuner to A=440 , which is what all music (that I am familiar with) is using.
And besides, is a 1 or 2 hz difference really discernible?
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Author: kdk
Date: 2017-10-25 21:38
LC007 wrote:
> So when I am practicing in
> front of my tuner, should I set the tuner to A=441 (or 442) and
> try to blow notes in tune at those settings? Or should I set
> the tuner to A=440 , which is what all music (that I am
> familiar with) is using.
Music is not composed at a specific pitch level. It's played at whatever pitch level the player's instrument is tuned to. I use "pitch level" rather than "pitch" to describe the pitch of A you're using, BTW, because when you check a note (e.g. long B(4) - concert A4) on a tuner, you're only tuning one reference note, not the whole clarinet. Other notes may be sharper or flatter and you will eventually need to learn how to adjust those with embouchure or fingering corrections, since you can't slide your barrel in and out for every note.
You should, IMO, set your tuner to A=440. It probably already is (or was) as a default. If you're playing in any bands or orchestras where your tuning has to match others, they probably start (or intend to start) at 440. So, pull your barrel and/or your mouthpiece out a little until your tuning note zeros on the gauge's dial.
> And besides, is a 1 or 2 hz difference really discernible?
For some people it is. But if you're practicing alone it doesn't make any real difference. It only really matters what pitch level you're instrument is producing when you play in a group.
Karl
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-10-25 22:47
Karl as usual wrote very well. It is difficult to find a horn that tunes perfectly on every note.
Actually you don't and can't play in tune in a band, or a symphony, or any group. You have to be flexible. Her is why. Let's say you have 3 instruments playing a simple cord. They can all be clarinets or all of them can be totally different instruments. The notes are an example. C, E, and G. If every note was in tune with the meter however the cord would actually "Sound," out of tune. The E would be sharp. So when playing you sometimes have to be flexible to hear the 3rd of the cord and adjust your embouchure just slightly to play a tad flat to actually be in tune. Although on a tuner you will be perfectly in pitch your ears will say you are out of tune. So it is your ears, your hearing which are more important. When playing C, E, and G the E may need to drop to 439, probably more like 439 1/2 if the musicians are sustaining a long cord. This also make tuning a piano a real gift. Thus the reason why there are sometimes 3 strings per note on the harp of a grand piano. It is weird, but I can always hear when a Steinway piano is being played. But I cannot tell the sound of the makes of other pianos. The harp inside of a Steinway has a different sound.
As for 440, well so many symphonies and bands tune to slightly different pitches. In the 1920's or so the Philadelphia Orchestra tuned to 438. This is what the conductor wanted. I'm sorry, but I cannot recall the conductors name.
Other orchestras have been known to tune just a shade higher to 441 and as high as 442. But again, I cannot recall which orchestras off hand. Was it the Chicago Symphony with Sir Georg Solti? I just don't remember.
Yes 440 is a number. But it is important at the same time. We as musicians have to be flexible to play as low as 438 to about 442. We cannot bite at 442 to reach this pitch. The throat closed, the sound sucks, your lips hurt, everything goes wrong.
This is why I have written so much about Vandoren and Buffet shoving their mouthpieces and horns down our throats that tune only to 440. They both say this is what America wants. I don't know of a single American that ever said this. Plus they both tend to play flat above high C. The Vandoren M series mouthpieces are too long and the Buffet R13 bores are too big in general. On some of their A clarinets you have to use a 63mm barrel depending on your mouthpiece of choice. This throws off a lot of the lower notes.
Great question! Hard to answer.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: kdk
Date: 2017-10-26 00:34
Bob Bernardo wrote:
> As for 440, well so many symphonies and bands tune to slightly
> different pitches. In the 1920's or so the Philadelphia
> Orchestra tuned to 438. This is what the conductor wanted. I'm
> sorry, but I cannot recall the conductors name.
In the 1920s it would have been Stokowski. I didn't know they tuned that low for him.
Karl
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Author: LC007
Date: 2017-10-26 00:46
Thanks for the answers Bob and Karl.
So I'll set my tuner to A440 and aim for green lights at that pitch level. I have so much to learn! It's not enough to develop a reasonably good embouchure, consistent tongue position, steady accurate fingering, supported breath and good volume and tone. I also have to learn how to manipulate these to render notes a tad flat or sharp, as the case may be, to meet the demands of the music! And then I have to learn how to replicate this!!
It's so much simpler with a guitar. The frets determine the notes and a well made guitar will play reasonably in tune with any instrument. But trying to pick out the melody to recorded music or jamming with people with my clarinet - well some notes are bang on, most are close enough but some are dreadful - either very flat or sharp (and I'm not talking about fingering mistakes) . How is one to know whether the next note will sound OK? I need a meter that will tell me: "Luc, the next note you are going to play will be sharp - so pull the horn out a bit..." Maybe Bob, that's where the lookout for the 3rd of the chord comes in? I'll try to think of that.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2017-10-26 01:56
LC007 wrote:
> I need a meter that will tell me: "Luc, the next note you
> are going to play will be sharp - so pull the horn out a
> bit..."
But of course you can't adjust individual notes by pulling the barrel (if that's what you mean). You have to find the tuning at which most of your notes are in tune and then change your embouchure pressure or the shape inside your mouth or the height of your fingers above the open toneholes or the finger you choose to adjust the outliers.
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Author: LC007
Date: 2017-10-26 02:27
kdk wrote:
> But of course you can't adjust individual notes by pulling the
> barrel (if that's what you mean).
I did notice that when I take in less mouthpiece into my mouth the note goes down a bit. I guess I am in effect changing my embouchure and lengthening the tube.
What is: " the finger you choose to adjust the outliers."
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Author: gatto
Date: 2017-10-26 02:32
To my knowledge some top US orchestras pitch higher than 440:
BSO 442
CSO 442
LA Phil 442
Philadelphia 441
Reference: http://members.aon.at/fnistl/page4.html
NYP 442 (by Wikipedia)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2017-10-26 05:32
gatto wrote:
> To my knowledge some top US orchestras pitch higher than 440:
>
> BSO 442
> CSO 442
> LA Phil 442
> Philadelphia 441
>
> Reference: http://members.aon.at/fnistl/page4.html
>
> NYP 442 (by Wikipedia)
I don't have any reason to question these, although the last time I talked to anyone in the Philadelphia Orchestra about their tuning the claim was that they started at 440. So, I wonder where Franz Nistl got the information.
Karl
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-10-26 06:32
Karl, good job, That is the conductor with Philly! So smart! Great memory. I've performed in the hall. A GREAT hall. Not super large, nor small, rectangle shaped with very high ceilings. Anyway, for some reason he wanted the pitch lowered JUST for the woodwind section, which he took great pride in selecting. Was the clarinetist then Bonade? I'm not sure. Or was this too early for Bonade?
I sell a lot of reeds to the Boston Symphony and they just ordered a pile. I'll ask them about the pitch.
Yes I talked to Boris, the principal of Los Angeles and he did say 442 was correct. He uses the BD5 mouthpiece, probably the one that tunes to 442, unless he is using special barrels.
So this is again why I ask why Vandoren and Buffet shoved their 440 junk to the Americans? Shame on them. Maybe this was due to design errors? So they said lets just sell them to the Americans. What do they know? We know plenty. Enough to fight back and refuse to play horns and mouthpieces which play flat! It's that simple.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2017-10-26 06:50)
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Author: zhangray4
Date: 2017-10-26 07:24
I think Boris of the LA Phil plays on those adjustable length barrels. I think they're called the Zoom barrels. So it wouldn't matter that much if he bought the 440 pitched or 442 pitched BD5. Or would it?
Thanks for the interesting info, definitely very useful for me!
-- Ray Zhang
Post Edited (2017-10-26 07:29)
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Author: Klose ★2017
Date: 2017-10-26 07:33
Why can't all orchestras simply tune to the same pitch 442? This will make a lot of things much easier.
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Author: Dibbs
Date: 2017-10-26 14:31
Why can't they all tune to 440? That's the ANSI and ISO standard.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2017-10-26 17:12
Bob Bernardo wrote:
> for some reason he wanted the pitch lowered
> JUST for the woodwind section, which he took great pride in
> selecting. Was the clarinetist then Bonade? I'm not sure. Or
> was this too early for Bonade?
>
Bonade 1917-1922, 1924-1930, Rufus Arey 1923-24 (http://www.stokowski.org/Philadelphia_Orchestra_Musicians.htm#Clarinet_Index_Point_.
Unfortunately (to my ear) they no longer play in the Academy of Music, having moved to the Kimmel Center in 2001.
> So this is again why I ask why Vandoren and Buffet shoved their
> 440 junk to the Americans? Shame on them. Maybe this was due to
> design errors?
My understanding is that Don Montanaro (then Associate Principal clarinet in the Philadelphia Orchestra) was very involved in designing the original Series 13 mouthpieces. The goal was to make them "darker" sounding and more able to play at "American pitch" (440) than the Vandoren Traditional series. As I've already said, anyone I've ever asked about the pitch in that orchestra has insisted that they tune to 440. Their current conductor, Yannick Nézet-Séguin, may have changed that.
But these tunings are not absolute or constant. It's much more complicated. Of course, five minutes into the program they're higher. Anytime there's a prominent part for fixed-pitch percussion (marimba, xylophone, etc.) the orchestra has to tune higher because those instruments are apparently tuned to 441. I don't know what the house grand piano is tuned to, but many piano soloists bring their own instruments, and those are tuned to whatever the individual player prefers. The orchestra tunes to the piano for piano solo works whatever it has been tuned to.
So whether the mouthpiece is advertised as tuning to 440 or 442 or something else, the player in an ensemble of any kind needs to be able to make the overall equipment play at a variety of pitch levels.
Karl
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Author: Wes
Date: 2017-10-26 23:58
Yes, it is relatively easy for clarinet players to play at 438 to 442. Barrel lengths and mouthpieces can be changed as needed. Some reeds play at slightly different pitches.
However, it is not nearly as easy for the oboist to tune over that range, because many oboes are optimized at the factory for 440, such as Loree, a very common USA choice. Laubins have also been tuned at 440 and mine certainly is in that camp. At an evening orchestra at USC, the doctorate candidate conductor insisted that we tune at 442, as "that is what all the important orchestras are tuning to". So I would squeeze my tuning note up to 442, but I was probably lower when we were playing. I'm still not sure why orchestras want to play at 442.
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Author: Klose ★2017
Date: 2017-10-27 01:32
Quote:
Why can't they all tune to 440? That's the ANSI and ISO standard.
As most major orchestras tune to 442, it is reasonable to set it as a standard.
Post Edited (2017-10-27 01:32)
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-10-27 08:20
OK - I talked to one of the people with the Boston Symphony who orders the Steuer reeds from me.
For years they tuned to 442. They now tune to 441.
Hope this helps. This is why I want all instruments and mouthpieces able to tune to 442. It is so critical. We cannot allow companies to give us horns that tune to 440. It's wrong. It's that simple.
I want to be able to pull out the barrel slightly if needed.
Thank you Karl for this information regarding the Philly Orchestra. So amazing.
Yes I played at The Academy Hall. Not the new hall.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2017-10-29 14:52)
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Author: Michael E. Shultz
Date: 2017-10-27 15:04
My college Alma mater held a get together in my area last year. I was blessed to have an extended conversation with the head of the music department. Malone University tunes to 442 Hz, and the pianos use a modified stretch tuning.
The entertainment was provided by a singer who had just graduated from Malone with majors in music and nursing. Her explanation for attending Malone was simple. Everyone else said it was impossible to have dual nursing and music majors, while Malone said that although no one had ever done that before, they would work with her.
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read."
Groucho Marx
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