 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2017-10-04 20:37
Hello there,
a certain method exists for making play in the keywork disappear. The only literal translation I cany give you is "pulling the (hinge) tubes". Or just shrinking, but I'm not sure.
Anyways, while people who had this done told me how happy they were with it, I wondered: Why bend the delicated keywork when you can us shims instead? I mean, for any other application that I can think of (eg. adjusting the play in a any sort of gearing mechanism, adjust play between two bearings with an axle etc.) you'd normally use shims with a min. thickness of 0.1mm, sometimes even less.
Now while over here, we procured the beautiful DIN 988 Shim Ring (it's basically steel shims with 0.5-0.1mm thickness), I was pretty much unable to find something for clarinet axles with 2mm ID
But I've found them on a certain hobby website - not sure if I may post the link: 4x2mm shims from 0.05mm to 0.3mm thickness, 10 pcs each. Im really excited to try this out on my Buffet RC, which could really use some improvement in certain areas...
So, what are your thoughts on this? Why do we have to use some special pliers rather than just shims?
Best regards
Christian Ledwig
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2017-10-04 20:54
I believe the word you are looking for is swedging. Swedging is used more for reducing the diameter of hinge tubes so they fit more snugly on the rods. No bending or pulling is necessary, the plyers are simply placed over the tube to compress it down to a smaller diameter. A side effect of this is that the tube is now slightly longer which reduces lateral play. The reason shims are not used is because they are less permanent. Also they will only remove lateral play which is often not the only source of sloppiness in keys. That's not to say shims don't have their uses. I've occasionally made shims for the keys on some really poorly made instruments (Romanian tarogatos, Indian 6 key flutes, some Chinese instruments...). If done right swedging leaves no marks (you have to polish your pliers to a mirror finish) and is completely permanent.
Another neat trick. For rods with pivot screws you can put a bit or teflon tape in the pivot hole to reduce play and noise.
-Jdbassplayer
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2017-10-04 20:59
At least in English it's called "swedging" and done with swedging piers. I think I've seen it spelled "swaging" in some places.
As to why swedging is better than shimming, I don't know the answer, but since repair people use shims for several other things, I imagine there is some reason. It would be critical to find a shim that's exactly the right thickness - neither too thin, which wouldn't solve the problem or might even add a vibration noise, nor too thick, which would bind the key. Swedging correctly provides exactly the lengthening needed to remove the lost motion without binding.
Karl
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Author: Wes
Date: 2017-10-04 22:38
One can make a swedging pliers from a very small adjustable locking pliers by grinding the jaws properly and smoothly. It can be easy to adjust and use.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-10-04 23:00
Shims aren't used as they're easily mixed up or lost when the instrument is taken apart.
Swaging key barrels is a more permanent repair to remove or reduce lateral play between key barrels and pillars, but it is easy to mark the key barrels or plating with swaging pliers and the ends of the key barrels will need fraising to true them up instead of leaving them uneven or rough which will cause uneven wear on the pillar faces or adjoining key barrels if several keys share the same rod screw or steel.
The only places I use shims are Teflon shims on saxes which have a tilting low Bb spatula and the key barrel can't be swaged, or a Selmer-style crook key if it has a saddle which too can't be swaged to take up the lateral play.
Some key barrels on clarinets can't be swaged or easily swaged such as the throat G# key, the Ab/Eb and F/C keys. In these instances, shims can be used, although a more permanent solution is to do a barrel graft which involves shortening and countersinking the existing key barrels and soft soldering appropriately shaped short lengths of key barrel into the ends, then fitting them to the rod screw and between the pillars to eliminate excess lateral play.
But there are some keys that require some lateral play - the speaker key, the side/trill keys and the throat A key just to ensure they will still function when the wood moves causing the pillars to move together when humidity levels drop.
Plastic bodied instruments need lateral play on all keys relative to their lengths - that's important to be sure they won't bind up when it's cold as plastic shrinks in all directions. This is why plastic bass, contra-alto and contrabass clarinets seem to have excessive lateral play in their keywork as this has been done on purpose and isn't down to poor manufacture. If the keywork was made to be a good fit between pillars, it'll all bind up solid as soon as they're played in a cold hall or outdoors.
Which keys on your clarinet do you consider require shimming?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2017-10-05 00:20)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2017-10-04 23:31
I assume you mean hinge tubes as opposed to hinge rods with pivot screws, which are usually not swedged (there are exceptions). Shims have a lot of down sides.
They only help with the less critical end play, and not the play around the rod screw, which is far more important.
Putting them is annoying and can be difficult, having to hold them while inserting the key. Even if you get them to "stick" to the end of the key or the post (e.g. with grease, etc.) they almost always move once you try to fit the key in its place.
The above becomes even more annoying when you need to take a key on and off a few times, which happens pretty often.
0.05mm is not accurate enough if you want to do it really accurately. 0.1mm would very often be too thick, for example.
>> bend the delicate keywork <<
Swedging doesn't do that. The reason it's done is because it's an excellent and efficient method. The keywork isn't delicate, at least not in the sense that anything bad would happen if someone who knows what they are doing is swedging it.
Both swedging pliers and collets are used, depending on the key and what is needed.
When swedging to lengthen a key, you would usually lengthen it slightly too much and then face it with a hinge tube shortener.
By the way permanent "shims" can be a good idea sometimes i.e. soldering an extension, but this is a more expensive repair which also takes longer and many times overkill.
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2017-10-05 03:35
Chris P:
"Some key barrels on clarinets can't be swaged or easily swaged such as the throat G# key, the Ab/Eb and F/C keys. In these instances, shims can be used, although a more permanent solution is to do a barrel graft which involves shortening and countersinking the existing key barrels and soft soldering appropriately shaped short lengths of key barrel into the ends, then fitting them to the rod screw and between the pillars to eliminate excess lateral play."
I know what you mean, and kind of imagened these would be the ideal areas where one could use shims, though your customers will certainly appreciate this level of effort.
I'd just try it on the dreaded h/c# keys (nylon pins alone aren't terrible enough...) which have a rather excessive amount of lateral play. Since I'd do it just for myself, I wouldn't mind a few Shims falling out during disassembly.
The main reason to use shims really is that I won't spend 80€ on some pliers. As I have access to a dental laboratory and some finde tools for polishing and drilling, I'd try to make a kind of DIY tool.
clarinibass - There is no real play "around" the rod screws, at least none that I would notice. Maybe because I've stopped using oil and switched to grease, which seems to lubricate them for a longer time.
But would you still say shims perform worse when I can assure you that I don't mind fitting them poperly? In fact I already have tried once, but the shim wasn't really suitable. Found it while working on an iPhone 5 and just had to try.
Thanks for your advice so far, everyone. Perhaps the RC isn't worth working on anyways, as it had some lateral play from the start. The hinge rod for the H/C tone hole could be longer, too
I wonder whether applying grease to the pivtos could prevent this, too.
There is a repairman who makes some kind of bushing which is supposed to reduce rattling noises: http://www.resonanzoptimierung.de/ResoBilder/Produkte/Klappe.gif
While I really don't care about his "resonance improvement", I really appreciate the concept. Think of flanged plastic inserts at the end of the hinge tubes - it'd both eliminate play and reduce friction.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2017-10-05 10:07
>> would you still say shims perform worse when I can assure you that I don't mind fitting them poperly? <<
Yes
>> The main reason to use shims really is that I won't spend 80€ on some pliers. <<
That's a very valid reason, but it doesn't mean that swedging is not better. All my sweddging pliers and couple of swedging collets were worth buying. I did my first repads with a stove and lighter but it doesn't mean it wasn't worth getting several other tools for heating keys.
It's like clarinets. A basic student clarinet is often good enough. A much better pro model is worth buying sometimes. An even more expensive clarinet sometimes is too.
>> As I have access to a dental laboratory and some finde tools for polishing and drilling, I'd try to make a kind of DIY tool. <<
Another good example. Compare a professional dental micromotor with a dremel or flexshaft tool. Some people don't mind the hassle or limitations of these because they are much cheaper. Definitely valid approaches but it doesn't mean the micromotor isn't better.
I use shims in rare cases as a fast band aid, or as a last resort to a key that is unrealistic to repair another way e.g. very low budget to make a kid's clarinet play better but no space to swedge.
Grease can be a decent band aid to help with play, though I prefer very thick oil and don't use grease for hinge tubes.
Re the plastic bushings at the ends, some clarinets I see coming from one person always have them (not the one in your link). They almost always have significant play...
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2017-10-05 11:51
Alright, you've convinced me. Indeed, dental micromotors and the various shaft mounted tools makes dremels look like toys - if you want to do your job well, you'll need the appropriate Instrument, despite near identical functionality.
That being said, I just found a chinese tool/pad maker ("zhmelody") that sells some some fine looking parallel swedging pliers for 38$. Looks like a total bargain, I just have to give them a shot and could easily smoothen any sharp edges, should there be any.
About the plastic bushings: I just wanted to give an example of how our instruments could be developed further, if there was any interest. There's clearly potential in that if it's done properly. Musicians and many instrument makers here in Germany are somewhat old fashioned when it comes to "new" stuff. I've had enough pointless discussion where I tried to argue for using a hot rework station rather than a flame - but people just do it that way and won't change that. If a certain technique, whether it's been around for centuries or not, is better, then I'm willing to adapt.
Post Edited (2017-10-05 17:13)
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2017-10-07 02:07
Attachment: 4D7D564D-44E3-46C1-8757-9500557D689A.jpeg (1439k)
Make sure you polish the inside of the swedging pliers mirror smooth, and use them with the rod in the barrel. Be careful not to bend the barrel. It’s easy to bend the barrel if your pliers are large and the barrel is not at right angels to the key. (You crank down on the pliers, and they touch part of the key, and bend the barrel out of line as you close them. ..not that I’ve ever done that...)
They talked about shimming with plastic shims at Red Wing, when the tube or rod is too short to easily swedge to length. I wonder if steel shims might wear the brass or nickel over time.
In the attached picture, like the tool on the left, but the pliers are more convenient. I want those pliers that are really small with the cutouts right at the very end.
- Matthew Simington
Post Edited (2017-10-07 02:13)
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2017-10-11 20:51
Matthew, the tool on the left looks quite interesting, I suppose you can use it for any barrel diameter, so that's a big plus for less conventional instruments, I suppose.
Anyways, I bit the bullet and ordered those pliers from zhmelody. It should be relatively safe as you can use paypal and that did save me some trouble in the past. I believe we have to give asian instrument/ tool makers a chance - so I've order a few pads, too. Can't beat the price, though I'm not going to forfeit those of Italian make.
Only downside: The zhmeledoy pliers don't have that cutout at the end.
I'll write a few words about them, once I have them.
BTW, I did some "unintended" swedging on an old Uebel produced during GDR times which had some really bendy keys. I wanted to move a cup a bit more towards the tone hole (seems it never really got too close to it) and of course didn't keep the rod in the barrel. It wasn't too hard to correct this and I accidentially made the barrel a perfect fit. What can I say, a key with almost no play between the posts simply feels nice.
Unfortunately, I now have to find a method to reduce play on hinge rods with pivot screws...
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