 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Sopranoplanet
Date: 2017-09-18 03:18
Attachment: logo moennig.jpg (301k)
Attachment: serial moennig.jpg (572k)
Attachment: repair moennig.jpg (275k)
I am asking for some help about a clarinet that has come into my possession. It is marked "W. Hans Moennig". It is quite a beautiful player, although I am a saxophonist with little clarinet knowledge. But the sound is warm and elegant, far better than my pre R-13 Buffet.
But, can anybody tell me about the relative value of a W. Hans Moennig clarinet? It does not belong to me but I would love to purchase it, if I can afford to make a correct offer. It belongs to a friend, who has it from a recently departed father-in-law.
So, please. Anybody know anything? There is little about such a clarinet although some information about this W. hans Moennig as a mouthpiece and oboe guru in Philadelphia.
I can identify an old repaired crack under the octave mechanism. Not an elegant repair but apparently quite stable.
Thanks in advance.
Post Edited (2017-09-18 03:20)
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2017-09-18 15:06
I didn't know that Hans Moennig made clarinets. He usually modified Buffet clarinets. He did make new barrels and I assume he would make new bells as well. Is his logo on the other sections of the clarinet? If you are near Philadelphia you could bring it to Mark Jacoby who apprenticed with Moennig.
Steve Ocone
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Author: Sopranoplanet
Date: 2017-09-18 16:25
Many thanks, Steve. I am so interested to know about this instrument. I will pursue mark jacoby and see what he thinks.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2017-09-18 17:17
I'm don't even think he put his name on the barrels, which were still Buffet barrels that he modified. I have several, and they're all labeled Buffet as they came from the factory. "Moennig Buffet," whether a whole clarinet or a part of one, generally meant that he had gotten something from Buffet and changed it in some significant way - bore shapes and dimensions, tone hole adjustments, even changes to the keys. He was a master craftsman, but he worked out of a second floor walk-up shop in Philadelphia, not any kind of factory where he could have produced whole instruments in any quantity. He was in many ways a first of his kind here in the U.S., though he came from a family tradition of woodwind instrument makers in Germany.
It would be interesting if you could attach a picture of the clarinet you're asking about. I wonder if it could possibly have been something he produced in Germany before coming here, possibly as a way to establish his skill in the pre-war German apprentice-based market.
Karl
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2017-09-18 22:32
The A/ Ab shared key post is reminiscent of pre R13 Buffet models, or of the Evette/Schaeffer series from the Buffet company.
I never saw him making clarinets from scratch, and, yes, his own Barrels never had the stamped Moennig name.....they sat in a display case together with mouthpieces just to the right of the entrance door. They looked just like the stock barrels.
This is certainly interesting. Mark J. might know, or perhaps Tim Clark in Ohio.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-09-19 03:24
You might have something pretty special. As with any horn it depends on how it plays. It is simple to figure out if it is a pre R13 by looking at the bore. All pre R13's had straight bores. You can buy a set of Telescoping Gauges to measure every part of the bore. There are other gauges you can buy as well to get exact readings without spending a whole lot of money, maybe $25. Fowler makes one but the Telescoping ones are cheap from Harbor Freight.
I knew Hans well and never knew of him making a horn. I studied repair with him. He had a horrible sound, but he was one heck of a repairman. He also repaired oboes and bassoons. His prices were very fair.
Be careful before buying it. I'm not sure if this is the real Hans. He had several relatives. This may be a cousin or someone. For example he had a cousin in Philly that repaired violins. The "W" doesn't ring a bell. I just don't know about this. He was always Hans. The "W" is throwing me off. Maybe other readers were aware of this.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-09-19 03:42
I've only ever seen a Hans Moennig (Los Angeles) bass - that was a German made bass but with Boehm system keywork.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Joseph Brenner, Jr.
Date: 2017-09-19 03:45
Bob,
The "W" of Moennig's name was, in fact, his. I have 2 post cards from him from 1962, each of which had a return address, for which he used a stamp. I'll transmit a photo of the front of a card to late. joseph brenner jr
best wishes
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Author: kdk
Date: 2017-09-19 04:48
There is a short tribute to him by his daughter at http://www.idrs.org/publications/controlled/DR/DR12.1/DR12.1.Wendel.Moenig.html. It apparently first appeared in 1983 and was posted at this site at his death in 1988 under the title "A Tribute to W. Hans Moennig." I think I remember the W on his receipts. William Heinrich (not Hans) Moennig built a major luthier business also in Philadelphia.
This doesn't tell you any more about the clarinet, but it may be telling that his daughter doesn't mention any sustained activity on his part as an instrument maker.
Karl
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Author: Doug Leach
Date: 2017-09-19 04:53
Everything in the pictures is consistent with a 1930 Buffet clarinet. The serial number in the second of the first 3 pix is 6984, which is consistent with 1930 manufacture. As Al Segal pointed out, the shared post on the A/Ab keys is consistent with pre-R13 Buffet, as is the triangular shape of the trill key guide. Lastly, if you look at the third pic in the last group, the left hand spatula keys share a single post. This is also consistent with a 1930 date. So it seems likely the horn is a 1930 vintage Buffet which Moenning modified, possibly early in his career.
Doug Leach
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Author: Sopranoplanet
Date: 2017-09-19 04:55
You folks are beautiful. many thanks.
I am a saxophonist (soprano) so I know sound when I hear it and I know response when I encounter it. It is there in spades on this instrument. Now, my taste is for richness but also core, not just a "big" sound. I can play clarinet enough to fool any non-clarinetist, and I've had literally 2 clarinet lessons, but I am a player, so my standards are high and my gullibility is low, so I don't often buy my own malarkey. In other words... I do think is is a nice horn and far beyond any clarinet I've ever encountered.
Any more ideas, opinions or direction is appreciated.
Joe
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Author: Sopranoplanet
Date: 2017-09-19 05:01
Thanks Doug- is there a preditable value for a stock Buffet from that period? I expect the Moennig modS affect the value, of course, but what might a stock Buffet of this vinatge in good condition be worth?
I'd like to make a fair offer to my friends and they have no idea what the value might be.
Your thoughts are appreciated.
Joe
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2017-09-19 09:08
Price depends a lot on country, area, etc.
At least here (maybe irrelevant to your area), if it's absolutely in the best condition and you are very lucky, someone falls in love with it, then maybe $1,200. Though this is unlikely even in the best condition. Any mods that it might have (or not) are not likely to raise value much if at all for anyone who can't actually try it.
However yours has a a pinned and glued crack that with a very ugly repair, which can lower the value significantly. Maybe even half or so. Even though a repaired crack might not affect the way it plays at all, in less than ideal condition, $600 is decent, sometimes even less.
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Author: Sopranoplanet
Date: 2017-09-19 14:39
Thanks for that. I actually made the assumption that a fair value might be something around $600, based on the going rates locally for Buffet clarinets pre-R13. But I will have somebody look at it who knows more than me ( most anyone, in that case).
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Author: Sopranoplanet
Date: 2017-09-19 23:37
It isn't mine.... yet. :-)
It belongs to the estate of a friend's father-in-law. I helped to liquidate a lot of his amazing saxophone and sax mouthpiece collection. This W.Hans Moennig clarinet was among his horns and it is with me at the moment. I just love it and want to make an appropriate offer to buy it. That's why I am seeking input from the clarinet universe about this unusual, it appears, instrument.
But, it is was mine, I wouldn't be selling it. But I would be selling my pre-R13 Buffet. :-)
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Author: Sopranoplanet
Date: 2017-09-27 05:22
So, I find that this clarinet is marked both on the bell and on the upper body with "W. Hans Moennig, Philadelphia", so perhaps it is NOT a Buffet?
Might Moennig have purchased unmarked Buffet clarinets for his own use, or is this possibly an original Moennig instrument?
I am fascinated to find out. Anyone?
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-09-27 07:55
This is a remarkable story and an equally remarkable find. However, I have to agree with the others that a $500 to $600 value is probably about right. It's a shame about the condition. Most likely it has been blown out as Harold Wright would say and he would change horns every 5 to 10 years.
The cool thing about is it was made by Hans Moennig! Sadly the value doesn't really go up, or I don't think it would go up in value.
If you decide to sell it please let me test it. I'm not saying I would buy it. Since I studied repair with him I may be able to put it in the condition that he would have had it in. For example, cork upper pads, plus cork pads with the first 2 lower register keys. Also check the cracks and see if he fixed these or if someone else did the work. He had special tricks he did to the bores of pre R13 horns. The reason why I'm interested is Bob Marcellus used a pre R13 with the Cleveland Orchestra and I do have some notes about his horns. Although he did play on R13's as well. Hans worked on Bob's horns, thus my personal interest.
I don't think I'd want to buy it but I'd be interested in making it play the way this master wanted clarinets to play and sound. Please stay in touch. Email me off line if you decide to get the horn. If I decided to overhaul it it could be worth a lot more than $500 to $600 depending on how well it plays. That of course is the key factor. If the bore is good, not warped, to the right buyer you may get a lot more for it. Probably less than $2000, probably more than $1000. We have to remember Hans was a genius.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Tony DeBruyn
Date: 2020-02-09 09:25
I recently purchased a very used "W Hans Moennig" clarinet online for a very reasonable price. Knowing his reputation I thought it would be an interesting instrument. It arrived and was in unplayable condition due to many rotted pads as well as being very worn and with some bad gluing of the rings. I do some basic repairs of my own instruments so I spent a few hours doing about a 3/4 repad to put it in playing condition. The idea was to see if it played well enough to justify further work.
I put an old Vandoren 2RV mouthpiece on it with a V12 reed and was delighted to find that it played very nicely. It was free blowing, balanced and had surprising good intonation, especially considering there was much more work to do replacing cords, adjusting pad heights, etc.
The clarinet that I have looks identical to one pictured in the initial posts of this string. The serial of mine is 2199C . Yes, there is a definite C after the serial number.
It was suggested in earlier posts that
the Moennig clarinet might be a Buffet pre-R13 rebranded, possible adjusted, and sold by Hans Moennig. I have two pre-R13 clarinets, one from 1935 and one from 1947, that play beautifully. I originally thought that my new Moennig clarinet was another pre-R13, it certainly looks very much like my two pre-R13's.
However, on closer inspection I see a number of very small differences, some of which are visible in the photos included in an earlier post.
- The most obvious is with the Bb/F trill key on lower section. The mounting rod that it rotates on is about 1/2 inch longer than on the pre-R13 and the shape of the key is different.
- There is no under cutting below the four key group on the lower section and there is no spring under the F#/C# key
- The shape the shape of the D/A trill key on the upper joint, next to the 2nd ring, is different.
- The triangular guide posts for the upper joint trill keys is smaller
- The shape of the register key and of the left hand keys of the lower section are slightly narrower than on a pre-R13
- The buttons on the left hand trill keys on the upper section are shaped differently.
- The shape of the C#/G# key on the upper joint is slightly different
Yet so much of the rest of the keywork is so similar to the pre-R13 and in my initial test it plays very similarly, although the Moennig clarinet may be a little more free blowing.
I can find very little about Moennig clarinets on the internet.
Does anyone have thoughts or suggestions on what this clarinet might really be?
Tony DeBruyn
978-877-6288
adebruyn@maine.rr.com
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Author: Mike Cyzewski
Date: 2020-02-11 06:06
I would like to share some first hand information about W. Hans Moennig having received my first Buffet Clarinet from him via Joseph Gigliotti in 1960. Subsequently I spent many hours having my instruments repaired in his shop on Market Street and also after he left that business I visited him at home where he was still repairing even though he only had one half of that Mammoth repair desk left..
I don’t know how many clarinets he made from scratch but I can tell you with certainty that he pulled a clarinet out of the glass case in back of his chair and told me it was one that he made in Germany. I was very young and too intimidated to request to play it but it seemed that he was very proud of it.
The person with the most knowledge about Mr. Moennig would be Mark Jacobi. He and Hans were planning on going to business together before Mr. Moennig’s unfortunate passing. Mark has on his wall a written introductory letter signed;
W. Hans Moennig.
As many of you know, he was a superb craftsman. He was equally as good repairing clarinets, bassoons oboes and flutes. He serviced all the instruments in the Woodwind section of the Philadelphia Orchestra. I was in his shop with Harold Wright and I know Robert Marcellus used him. Benny Goodman sang his praises on The Mike Douglas show . It was a marvel to see him play all the instruments as well. I never thought his sound on any of the instruments was objectionable.
I don’t know what the monetary value of his clarinet would be but if it were my instrument I might recommend it be displayed in a museum of some kind. Maybe at the Curtis Institute ?
Mike Cyzewski
North Carolina Symphony
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Author: Tony DeBruyn
Date: 2020-02-14 20:30
Since receiving the W. Hans Moennig clarinet I have been looking at dozens of pictures of clarinets in ebay and on varies web sites, including this one. From this I have concluded that the Moennig clarinet I have is his rework of "The Earliest Modern Noblet" as discussing in this post …
https://www.woodwindforum.com/clarinetperfection/snleblanc-noblet/
The keywork is identical in shape and position. I have also found pictures of a couple of old Noblets that have identical keywork.
The serial number is 2199C. I am guessing that puts the date in the mid 1950's. It seems that Noblet serial number information is very sketchy for the older models. I did find the following notes.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My family purchased this insturment in 1955 - 1956. Serial number is 2122 A.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Re: Noblet serial numbers
FYI,
early 1900s i have a SN of 0718
pre WWI a SN of 2149 (prob early 1900s)
1964 - 38500
1960 had 18559 (per receipt) But it was bought in 1960, made 1960 or before.
1920-30s metal - 73xx
then they started the suffix A B C D runs in between the 30s and 60s
of course, it looks like they screwed up the SN consistency in the early 1970s too as they had a run of non-prefix horns (xxxx) when their should have been prefixes (Axxx)
Tony DeBruyn
978-877-6288
adebruyn@maine.rr.com
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Author: hartt
Date: 2020-02-20 05:15
it is a stencil.........just as were made for H (Harold) Freeman N.Y.
Buiffet made stencils for renown players or dealers of the period. Harold was 2sd/eefer in the old NBC sym under Toscanini and the NYC Ballet . He was also the immigration sponsor for Guy Chadash
mine was a one pc eflat. The body and bell were stamped H. Freeman N. Y. inside an oval and made in france
The case was unmarked but original
I purchased it from his stand partner who had been my teacher. It had sat unused for yearssss and I had John Butler overhaul it
perhaps you can do a search on here for buffet stencils I know Harold Freeman has been a topic in years gone by
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