 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: zhangray4
Date: 2017-09-23 20:09
A lot of people nowadays are using Vandoren M13, M15, 5RV, and other closed tip mouthpieces. My teacher started me off on a B45, and told me later on to try the M30 and Masters series mouthpieces since he says they are easier to control. Immediately I preferred them over the B45. Even now, I don't like the B45: sounds too bright.
What are the benefits of using closed tip mouthpieces? Open tip? What type of sound would you generally get out of each? And why do Americans tend to use closed tip while Europeans use more opened tip like B40/B40 Lyre?
And how do tip openings affect your reed strength?
Thanks guys, just a very confused amateur.
-- Ray Zhang
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Author: echi85
Date: 2017-09-23 21:04
I am by no means an expert when it comes to mouthpieces but I have learned a few things over the years that I think are true, at least anecdotally.
Tip openings are important, but the length of the facing is just as important. I personally find the width of the side rails to be a major factor in what I choose to play nowadays.
1.) Closer facings give you a more narrow, tighter sound. The sound tends to be more covered and darker because they are usually associated with longer facings. Most traditional American players play with an "E" vowel shape to the sound. These mouthpiece align with that shape. I generally prefer these types of mouthpieces. Because these are low resistance mouthpieces, you must use harder reeds for them to work.
2.) Open facings give you a bigger body of sound but with less focus. I don't think you will ever get a laser beam type sound with an open mouthpiece. These mouthpieces ere towards brightness because they tend to be shorter facings. Many European players prefer an "Ah" vowel shape to the sound and these mouthpieces fit that profile. I have played a few of these type of mouthpieces but I find the resistance to be too high for me to sustain. These mouthpieces are high resistance and need soft reeds.
Walter Grabner has a good write up explaining the differences here:
http://www.clarinetxpress.com/facings.html
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2017-09-23 21:54
Hi, Ray:
If you took a given mouthpiece and widened the tip opening gap while leaving the facing length and tip rail thickness the same, the results would sound pretty much the same as with the closer tip opening. The spatial relationship between the vibrating reed and the mouthpiece interior surfaces would be slightly altered and account for most of whatever subtle difference that you might hear., if any.
The most significant difference afforded in this example would be that you would likely elect to use softer reeds with the more open tip, and the softer reeds might offer you different possibilities in terms of voicing and response.
There's much more to the equation: baffle profile, frame profile, facing length and curve profile, tip and side rail thickness, bore dimensions, and other details all vary between models and all affect the sonic presentation that you hear.
At the end of the day, it's not unlike buying speakers for an audio system: Audition as many models as you can, and let your ears be the ultimate judge.
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2017-09-24 07:21
Actually, one of the most important aspects of choosing a tip opening is what the player is comfortable with. Any of us can play competently on a range of mouthpieces from, say, 1.03 to 1.13. All you have to do is vary the reeds that you select, that will vibrate well for a given tip opening.
In my opinion however, for every one of us, there is a tip opening that feels the most comfortable and secure. That's very important, because the more secure you feel, the better you will play. Often this preference for a given tip opening will depend on a certain aspect of the formation of the players lips, teeth, and jaw. Degree of overbite (or underbite) will matter significantly.
When I assist clients choosing mouthpieces, I always have them try a range of models with different tip openings. It becomes clear very soon whether a close, medium, or more open tip works best for them. Only then do I move on to other aspects.
I develop and market mouthpieces with tips openings from .98 to 1.20. Each style has its adherents. And that's a good thing!
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2017-09-24 19:30
The better mouthpiece makers, including Walter, do things with the mouthpieces to counteract the potential downsides of different facings. You can have a closed facing with a big sound or an open facing with a centered sound, but you might have to do some traveling and try out a lot of mouthpieces. As far as closed mouthpieces are concerned, Americans are rank amateurs compared with Austrians, but they have reeds that work with the facings, and the bores of their instruments are a lot wider. It's not only a matter of harder reeds with closed facings, but also the relative thickness of the tip, heart and back, the width, and the length of the vamp.
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Author: TomS
Date: 2017-09-26 20:29
The B45 is the double chili bacon cheeseburger in the MP world ... tasty at first, but pain will follow, and you will regret ... not as good for you as smoked Salmon and some steamed broccoli ...
Tom
Post Edited (2017-09-26 20:30)
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2017-09-26 21:15
I've always wondered if the US preference for close mouthpieces reflected a stronger influence of German players in the early days. For example, Penzel Mueller was created by German immigrants. And traditional German mouthpieces were very closed - when I try to blow one, initially it just shuts completely until you learn to treat it gently. Is it known whether typical US tip openings were even smaller back at the start of the 20th Century? My impression is that in Europe (including the UK for now....) the trend has been towards larger openings for quite a while. Ramon Wodkowski has written here about the relatively closed mouthpiece of an early English figure like Thurston. Even the Germans are at it: something like the M30D doesn't feel particularly alien - and the sound I hear from modern German players doesn't seem like it could come from the old style equipment (think Herbert Stahr). How long before the US joins the trend to the sunny pastures of 1.20mm?
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2017-09-26 22:50
Reportedly, many clarinetists in Y. Gilad's studio in California have been playing the fairly open Vandoren B40 and B40 lyres for some time. And recently the Vandoren BD5 has been gaining in popularity. On the other hand, several symphony players still use the M13 lyre and a few use the Behn pieces in close facings. Morales used the close Backun pieces for awhile before his recent change to a more open crystal. Some young orchestral players are using the closer facings in the Ramon Wodkowski line (such as Vintage 1 and 1b). So the current is always shifting. I would expect to see a rage of close, medium, and open rather than just one type in the future and a range of clarinet brands (Buffet to be sure, but also more Selmer, Yamaha, Backun, and perhaps others).
Except for a few players like Robert Lindeman and later Michelle Zukovsky, Americans have been most influenced by the French school in choice of equipment. Before the rise of Buffet in the late 50s, most classical players in the US probably played Selmer instruments. The Selmer HS* mouthpiece was considered the classical standard, and that's the opening that players like Al Gallodoro and Gino Cioffi used. In France, the Vandoren 5RV (also called the 2RV), with a tip of about 1.06 mm, was for several decades considered standard and popular in the US as well, especially for students. Earlier, Henri and Alexandre Selmer had played even closer facings, the HS and the A, both under 0.95 mm at the tip. Everett Matson, who probably did more refacing of symphony players' mouthpieces than anyone else for about a 25-yr. period, would routinely open the tip to about 1.02 or 1.03 mm unless you asked for something wider. That's the kind of facing Harold Wright used. Stanley Drucker's Alelandais was about 1.05 mm.
Though there were always players like Bob McGinnis who used more open facings (George Jenny or Kaspar 16), it wasn't until the 1960s that more open tips (such as the famous Kaspar 13 made for Robert Marcellus) became popular. Most American clarinetists were not much influenced by German players until Karl Leister become famous in the US. Even then, the only major orchestral player in the US to permanently switch to the Oehler system was Michelle Zukovsky in the Los Angeles Phil. Chicago owns Oehlers and that section played them for German music but never really switched over. Even today with the overwhelming popularity of players like Sabine Meyer and Andreas Ottensamer, the regular French Boehm (or slight variations of it in the Yamaha CSG) is the nearly universal choice of American pros.
Post Edited (2017-09-27 03:08)
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2017-09-26 23:40
John,
In school in the '70s, people mostly preferred facings in the 1.00 - 1.08 range, except for the ones who got ahold of Kaspars a bit more open than that. But they also tended to use VD #5 reeds, so it wasn't a delicate setup. The sound in the Stephen Williamson video is close to what most people seemed to be aiming at. The theory was that the closed facing provided stability, and the hard reed helped with projection and a clean tone.
On interest in German sound and players, had the good fortune to go to school with Steve Cohen, who spent a year in Berlin studying with Leister and has since gone on to endorse Playnick mouthpieces, so there was interest back then, if not widespread adoption. Steve was a great player then, and no doubt still is.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2017-09-27 00:06
Williamson also studied in Germany--at the Hochschule der Kunste with Peter Riekhoff, who played the Oehler system clarinet and spoke only German.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2017-09-27 02:46
John Peacock wrote:
> I've always wondered if the US preference for close mouthpieces
> reflected a stronger influence of German players in the early
> days. For example, Penzel Mueller was created by German
> immigrants. And traditional German mouthpieces were very closed
> - when I try to blow one, initially it just shuts completely
> until you learn to treat it gently. Is it known whether typical
> US tip openings were even smaller back at the start of the 20th
> Century?
The Chedeville mouthpieces that so many American players were using from the '20s onward were close-tipped and so were the slightly later Kaspars. I've always assumed they were following traditions that originated in France.
Karl
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