 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: StevenWayne
Date: 2017-09-20 07:41
Sometimes contact cement doesn't hold well for me (I've been using Elmers no wrinkle rubber cement). And I do clean the tenon with a bit of alcohol before applying the cement. Maybe the cork needs to be cleaned as well.
I always have wondered what the brown residue is that they use to glue tenon corks on at the factory. Shellac? Here's what I tried on a plastic Vito, and if this is old hat, sorry for bringing it up... I dissolved some fine shellac flakes in denatured alcohol and applied it to both tenon and cork, just like the contact cement, then let it dry for a bit so most of the alcohol was evaporated. The shellac is fairly sticky at that point. Then applied the cork (one end beveled so to get overlap). Had to hold it tight with a piece of tape for a couple of hours, but it looks like a successful glue job that is holding well. The cork is only partially sanded but so far, so good. Perhaps a better hold, we'll see on that, not nearly as convenient as contact cement though.
Another thing I tried on a pivot screw where the corresponding hole in the key had a little too much play. I made a bushing out of copper foil. Just a tiny piece fitted into the hole, so as to surround the screw point when tightened. Worked like a charm. I buy rolls of copper foil at Hobby Lobby to shield control cavities on electric guitars.
Post Edited (2017-09-20 07:41)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2017-09-20 09:01
StevenWayne wrote:
> Sometimes contact cement doesn't hold well for me (I've been
> using Elmers no wrinkle rubber cement).
Rubber cement is not the same thing as contact cement. Which have you been using?
Karl
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2017-09-20 16:18
Go to Walmart and get a bottle of Weldwood contact cement, it comes in a little brown bottle. It will hold far better than shellac.
-Jdbassplayer
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-09-20 16:29
I only use contact adhesive (Evo-Stik) for tenon corks and key corks/felts. Liquid shellac takes an age and a half to dry, so no good for tenon corks in my opinion. Contact adhesive offers instant workability once the cork strip is fitted. Tying down cork strips can deform the cork if wrapped too tightly.
Shellac has been used in the past which is why tenon slots often have deep grooves to offer more surface area for the shellac. But like a lot of old world methods, developments have been made which are often much better and more convenient.
As contact adhesive works best when applied thinly and evenly onto flat surfaces, deeply grooved tenon slots are useless as that only offers minimal contact with the cork as the cork only sits on the peaks. But deeply grooved tenon slots can be smoothed out or filled in to offer maximum contact with the adhesive and the cork strip.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: StevenWayne
Date: 2017-09-20 16:51
Weldwood Contact Cement. Will do. BTW, the shellac did seem to hold fast. But, it took hours to dry and had to be mixed. Not good. However, the cork is sanded down and fitted to the barrel and looks good, so it stays on that joint.🙂
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Author: TomS
Date: 2017-09-20 17:35
The top joint corks on my R13/greenline came off after just 5 months and I had them replaced at the cost of 20 bucks each ... there are no small grooves cut in the wood/material on this clarinet, as on most instruments, under where the cork is glued ... I don't know if this makes a difference ...
I do use this instrument is hot/cold/dry/humid venues ... this may have contributed to the demise of the cork joints ...
I wonder what happened to the synthetic cork stuff?
Tom
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-09-20 17:49
TomS wrote:
"The top joint corks on my R13/greenline came off after just 5 months and I had them replaced at the cost of 20 bucks each ... there are no small grooves cut in the wood/material on this clarinet, as on most instruments, under where the cork is glued ... I don't know if this makes a difference ..."
What type of cork grease did you use? The cheapo lipstick-style ones supplied with most clarinets is very thin and soaks into the cork, destroying the adhesive.
Also the chances are the tenon corks weren't glued on particularly well to begin with - most Buffets I see have tenon corks that peel off easily (as well as those peel'n'stick foam key 'corks').
If it has those wavy tenon slots, then there's hardly any decent adhesion as the cork only makes contact with the peaks, so has voids at the ends and between the peaks.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2017-09-20 18:35
Shellac is old school method for corking. It was mainly done with a hot shellac "spatula" application to the tenon and then pressing the cork down. It took time to do. I didn't use this method for clarinet tenon work but was used for corking sax necks in the shop where I apprenticed (mid 1970's). I still get a "closet clarinet" in that when replacing cork find shellac underneath. It's becoming less frequent.
jbutler
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2017-09-20 19:21
Nowadays, I don't do much work for others, and work primarily on my own instrument collection. I've always used stick shellac and a spatula for tenon corks and have never had problems. The cork wears out before the bond does, and cleanup on old tenons is easier/faster for me. I did try contact cement a couple times, but since I'm used to shellac, the process of cement seemed messier and took longer for me.
Fuzzy
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2017-09-20 20:28
Elmer's cement is no good for repair or other heavy duty applications. It might be ok for paper.
Alcohol is bad for plastic/resin brittle. It makes it brittle.
- Matthew Simington
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Author: kdk
Date: 2017-09-20 20:53
You wouldn't use Elmers regular white glue/cement for corks - that *is* for paper and wood. It's water-soluble. You would use Elmer's or Weldwood Contact Cement. It's applied in a thin coating to both sides of a join, left to dry to a dull sheen and then the pieces are put together. It is quite permanent unless something dissolves it, flexible and fairly easily removed.
Karl
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Author: StevenWayne
Date: 2017-09-21 07:44
I picked up some DAP Weldwood today. Looking forward to doing a job right this time.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2017-09-21 08:22
|If you are in the USA the most common contact glue brands I see mentioned by American repairers are Weldwood and Barge.
I like Bison but there are several good brands. I used to use Evostik until they changed to a "new formula". I've tried maybe 15 different ones so it's worth trying a few.
>> there are no small grooves cut in the wood/material on this clarinet, as on most instruments, under where the cork is glued ... I don't know if this makes a difference ... <<
It doesn't really. The very wavy shape (what Chris mentioned) is the worst. The cork does take the shape of the tenon so there is full contact for the glue, but the support is only at the high areas (usually two) and this is terrible for support by the cork.
There are several types of small grooves. The reason for all is to have space if shellac is used to glue, which is the old (very very old) method. With contact glue this is unnecessary. Some grooves reduce glue contact area because the cork can't shape to them. Some are thinner with larger spaces, which dig a bit into the cork. This can enlarge contact area in theory but also (like any non-flat tenon) works against the cork's springiness. Contact glue is just about the worst filler of all glues.
I guess low grooves shaped in a way to not try to "bend" the cork too much to have full contact and also able to dig in might, in theory at least, be slightly better than a flat tenon. In reality a flat tenon has enough contact area that with good quality glue there is no problem.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-09-21 19:52
It's messy, contact cement. And it once the bottle is opened the air kills it. It gets thick. Use rubber gloves. The stuff is hard to get off of your fingers. Back to the cement getting thick. It can get too thick and at this point just get another bottle. If it's too thick the glue takes forever to dry and it just isn't worth how messy it gets to clean up and get a nice even, smooth, thin layer put on to the joint and the cork. I like to wait about 20 to 30 minutes before attaching the cork to the joint. It will stick hard. Then I wrap rubber bands around the cork for about another hour. remove and sand to fit. Nail files work great to sand off the cork to size.
I hate how some joints are made. The joints wobble often due to this because the cork isn't wide enough. So I will take an electric file, a small one of course and make that area wider where the new cork will go. This will surely help stop any wobbling, including mouthpieces.
To remove the old cork I use a knife and to remove the adhesive I use rubber gloves and something called, "Goof Off," lasts forever. Use a paper towel, not a rag, because of the smell and you can then throw out the paper towel and now smell up the house. The service is now ready. You have a much wider cork area, so you shouldn't get anymore wobbles, or very little. These can cause air leaks.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-09-21 20:09
I use contact cement in tubes. Doesn't get killed and lasts longer than a tin. Also dead easy to remove from fingers and other surfaces as you can roll it off after a few minutes.
As far as Buffet's wavy tenon slots go, all the ones I've removed the tenon cork from only have the cork adhering to the peaks of the waves and the troughs are otherwise untouched. They are coated with glue, but the cork is never stuck to them. I machine them flat as a matter of course to give maximum adhesion of the cork strip. But that's just one of many problems associated with Buffet clarinets.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: StevenWayne
Date: 2017-09-21 21:28
I just finished my first tenon cork with the Dap Weldwood contact cement on a plastic Vito. Looks to be a complete success.😀
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2017-09-21 22:56
I checked on evo-stick years ago after seeing it mentioned on Delphi. It wasn't available in the U.S. Maybe it is at this writing. Two of the most common brands sold by the repair suppliers and also available on Amazon are S-18 and Barges. I've used both and they're about the same. Allied Supply carries the S-18. Ferree's has their own brand but suspect it's repackaged.
jbutler
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2017-09-21 23:25
I like Barge.
I would prefer Weldwood, except as mentioned it's always drying out. It's great for a while, then not so great, then unusable.
The corks on my horn (c. 1993) were machined to fit the wavy tenons. I thought of making some kind of device with a rotating sander to cut the backs of the corks to fit, or something you pull it through. When I replaced them I used a screwdriver shaft to push the corks into the hollows, then sanded. It worked ok.
- Matthew Simington
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2017-09-22 01:00
Evo-Stik is on Amazon and elsewhere online in the U.S. now. They have "Serious Glue" And "Impact Adhesive." You get the latter if you try a lookup on "contact adhesive," so I'm guessing that's what people in the U.K. use for tenon corks.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-09-22 02:15
Attachment: evostik.jpg (69k)
I think they call it impact adhesive as superglue (cyanoacrylate) is often called contact adhesive, so maybe that's done just for the sake of separating the terms.
I buy it in 30g tubes as they're used up well before it spoils.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2017-09-22 10:38
Yes, Impact is the Evo Stik contact glue. It's still good but not as good as it used to be before they changed the formula, so I changed to something I like better.
Actually the best I've tried was a no-name Chinese made one, but it had such a foul smell I decided not to use it... I have no idea what they put in it...
Re the glue drying, it can happen much more with a can than with a tube with a small nozzle. I only use the latter and don't like the can. It lasts a very long time. I've only ever had the very top dry and even though it usually comes out fine (once in a while - maybe a few weeks or months - I need to poke it with something).
Re the glue taking a very long time to dry, it can depend on the type of glue, weather in your area and how thick you put it. It's very rare that I need to wait more than two minutes and for small corks it's usually much less. For tenons it's usually around a minute (guesstimating). When using the can with the brush it's much thicker and can take much longer.
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2017-09-22 14:13
I use Ferrees quick dry contact cement. Amazing product that really gets the job done properly and dries in 5 minutes and is easily reversible which is important.
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Author: TomS
Date: 2017-09-23 18:19
I use "The Doctors" cork grease ...
The greenline material is slicker than wood ... that might be some of the problem with the cork coming off ...
Tom
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Author: kdk
Date: 2017-09-23 19:34
TomS wrote:
> I use "The Doctors" cork grease ...
>
I had been using that product during the period when three of my tenon corks failed. I tend to discount the cork grease, whatever is used, as a cause of the corks' coming loose, because too many players use "The Doctor's" and many of the other products that are available, and I've never noticed any consistency in reports of cork failure that one particular lube or another was involved. But in my case, using "The Doctor's" grease didn't protect the corks, either.
Karl
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2017-09-23 22:20
KDK,
I've noticed a lot of corks coming off whole, "spinners" as I define them, with the particular cork grease you mention. I do not use it any longer as a precaution. I've gone to coating corks with bee's wax and using a very light top coat of grease that contains no petroleum products.
jbutler
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Author: shmuelyosef
Date: 2017-09-24 03:55
I buy nail polish jars (from Rachel's Supply...you can look it up) and dilute the Weldwood about 50% with JLSmith thinner. I buy a bottle of Weldwood, mix up a dozen nail polish jars, and seal them tight. When I open each one it is fresh as new. The jars are cheap...I buy them 100 at a time and use them for a variety of 'brushables'. The thinned cement dries fast, makes a more even coat, and the brush is more appropriate to clarinet parts than the 'club' that comes in the Weldwood jar. It takes a little more time to coat a tenon, but works great.
I use Doctors Products on my own clarinets and have no trouble with tenons that I have replaced, but some trouble with factory tenon corks.
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