 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: kdk
Date: 2017-08-20 00:23
I have been having a problem with tenon corks coming loose over the past months. I've just had to replace the middle tenon cork on my clarinet for, I think, the third time (so, 4 corks) inside of a year or year-and-a -half. They are not too snug, I don't leave the instrument out overnight, and I play it every day - it's my main Bb.
I'm mounting them with standard Weldwood Contact Cement, applying it to both surfaces, letting it dry to a dull surface, then pressing the cork onto the tenon. They seem firm and hold snugly for a period of a few months, then come loose and roll up the tenon one day when I assemble the clarinet. The first time it happened, it was a cork that my very trusted repairman had put on. I started doing my own to avoid the trip to his shop. I have had the same thing happen relatively recently to a barrel tenon cork - it seemed perfectly intact and fit well and one day just came off. The corks are not worn-looking or damaged when this happens.
This is a new experience after 60 years of playing. What possibilities might explain it?
Karl
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-08-20 00:29
Have you degreased the tenon slot thoroughly? It may be contaminated with oil or grease.
Use alcohol (isopropyl or similar) on a cotton bud (Q-tip) and degrease the slot around twice or three times, letting the alcohol evaporate and then applying the contact adhesive.
Just so you don't feel disheartened, I've had factory fitted tenon corks peel clean off Buffet clarinets with very little effort.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2017-08-20 00:49
Well, I have cleaned the tenon in the past with alcohol. I decided today to try mineral spirits instead.
Karl
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2017-08-20 01:57
Have you changed what you use to lubricate the corks with during the time the problem started?
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Author: kdk
Date: 2017-08-20 02:45
nellsonic wrote:
> Have you changed what you use to lubricate the corks with
> during the time the problem started?
Well, I thought about that. I've used two different lubricants. I hesitate to mention which because, now that it isn't a single one, I can't really say that either is responsible and mentioning names might stir up a hornet's nest here. My repairman, Mike Hammer, suggested the last time it happened that I might just be greasing the corks too often, so I've made a point of backing off the frequency and using the technique I always saw Gigliotti do years ago - wetting the cork a little with saliva to make the grease that's already there a little more slippery.
Karl
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2017-08-20 03:31
It is virtually impossible to overgrease a cork as long as a good quality cork grease is used. By far the most common failing is the opposite.
I grease my tenon corks daily and have had these corks last easily 10-20 years.
However the quality of the grease is vital.
After 30+ years of using homemade grease I moved about 15 years ago to the Doctors product. Very happy that I got a good cork life using either one.
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Author: tucker ★2017
Date: 2017-08-20 05:48
Hmmmm.... never gave cork grease much thought. Anyone have thoughts, one way or another, about Vandoren grease? Selmer? I've tried Ridenour's but found it to be very sticky.
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2017-08-20 06:17
If your corks are prone to falling off you may want to rough up the surface with sandpaper before new corks are glued on. On many student instruments the slots for the cork are smooth which makes it very hard for the glue to stick. What kind of instrument is it?
-Jdbassplayer
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Author: kdk
Date: 2017-08-20 06:47
jdbassplayer wrote:
> If your corks are prone to falling off you may want to rough up
> the surface with sandpaper before new corks are glued on. On
> many student instruments the slots for the cork are smooth
> which makes it very hard for the glue to stick. What kind of
> instrument is it?
>
> -Jdbassplayer
Selmer 10G. The channels are smooth, but the instrument is from the early '70s and I probably had the middle tenon cork replaced once in 40 years. This has only become an issue recently.
Karl
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2017-08-20 09:04
Vaseline and any cork grease that is too similar to vaseline can seep and ruin the glue. Especially if using a lot of grease (which bad cork grease can cause).
Maybe the glue you use changed? I've had this happen when my favourite contact glue changed to a "new formula" and I really didn't like it after that. Companies do that sometimes without mentioning anything.
Maybe your glue is too old.
Any grease or oil can cause this, from your fingers, cork grease leftovers, etc.
Almost all "spinners" I see are a result of bad cork grease.
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2017-08-20 09:26
Maybe there was something wrong with your Weldwood when you got it.
Applying parrafin wax helps prevent the cork from absorbing solvent. It also makes it a bit more slippery. I use canning wax. You may have seen this, it's exactly how we did it at repair school. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WOXEG56QUgY
You will probably burn a few corks at first, just as long as it's not the clarinet. The trick is that after the initial application, when you are heating the cork, hold it TOO FAR from the flame and be patient. Obviously, don't put the tenon right above the flame, but to the side.
For anyone with a plastic clarinet who may be reading this and who doesn't already know - alcohol is for wood only. It makes plastic brittle.
- Matthew Simington
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-08-20 16:10
Alcohol is hardly going to harm plastic if it's only wiped on to degrease the tenon slots - I've never seen any clarinet tenons suddenly break off as a result of being degreased using alcohol. If anything, alcohol is the best degreaser for plastic as solvents will dissolve plastics.
You'll only get a slight blooming of the surface when they're wiped over with alcohol (which is usually the residual adhesive and solvent), but it won't affect the integrity of the plastic at all and tenons wont shatter into a million pieces at the mere whiff of alcohol.
Plus the fact that alcohol is supplied in plastic containers, so it's a complete non issue.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2017-08-20 17:02
Yes, some cork greases remove tenon corks. using a solvent and roughing up the area are good ideas, Also sealing with wax. There are some non-petroleum cork greases on the market.
Steve Ocone
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Author: kdk
Date: 2017-08-20 18:09
Caroline Smale wrote:
> It is virtually impossible to overgrease a cork as long as a
> good quality cork grease is used.
Since more than one cork lube has been involved, I'm not so sure the grease is the problem. But this comment made me stop to think.
The first of this series of cork failures was, of course, an old cork that had been on the clarinet for a long time. The last two or three (there was also a premature barrel tenon cork failure in the series) have been corks I've mounted myself, and the cork I've been using was bought from an online vendor. It looks fine - smooth-textured, no knots or blemishes or obvious openings - but I wonder if it could be too porous or otherwise somehow too permeable so that grease is absorbed and soaks through and softens the cement?
Where do the repair people here get their sheet cork? Is there a manufacturer to look for that provides a cork of known quality? What do you look for in determining the quality of cork?
Karl
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2017-08-20 22:32
I've move away from cork grease and have started using bee's wax with a very light coating of silicon grease.
jbutler
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Author: BobW
Date: 2017-08-20 22:42
maybe change the brand of contact cement you are using
another idea is to put cement on the cork and tenon
let it dry
then place another one to two applications
allowing to dry in between
then place the cork on the tenon
Good Luck
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2017-08-20 22:44
Karl, of the suggestions, the one closest to my own experience is the possibility of a bad batch of contact cement. Gave up on stuff from a repair supply place and got some Weldwood from a hardware store because of the same problem. I'm told that if it sits a long time and gets too viscous, it should be cut slightly with a solvent. I'll defer on that to people who do this kind of thing all the time, though.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-08-20 22:46
I use La Tromba cork grease and even put complimentary tubs of it in with instruments I work on to be sure people are using the cork grease I recommend instead of that dreadful lipstick-style stuff.
The only times I've had to replace the tenon 9or crook) corks I've done is when players leave instruments assembled or with saxes, leaving the mouthpiece on the crook so the cork has compressed and dried out. So there's no getting through with some people even when you give them explicit instructions about greasing the corks and not leaving things assembled.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2017-08-20 23:14
BobW wrote:
> another idea is to put cement on the cork and tenon
> let it dry
> then place another one to two applications
> allowing to dry in between
> then place the cork on the tenon
Yes, another BBoard member suggested this in an email. If this cork follows the same path to failure, multiple layers of cement are worth trying.
Karl
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Author: kdk
Date: 2017-08-20 23:16
Chris P wrote:
> I use La Tromba cork grease and even put complimentary tubs of
> it in with instruments I work on to be sure people are using
> the cork grease I recommend instead of that dreadful
> lipstick-style stuff.
>
Thanks for the suggestion. If another cork fails (or even if it doesn't), this is worth a try.
Karl
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Author: kdk
Date: 2017-08-20 23:23
dorjepismo wrote:
> Karl, of the suggestions, the one closest to my own experience
> is the possibility of a bad batch of contact cement. Gave up
> on stuff from a repair supply place and got some Weldwood from
> a hardware store because of the same problem.
Well, this *is* Weldwood from the local Lowe's. There are other brands right next to it that may work better.
> I'm told that if
> it sits a long time and gets too viscous, it should be cut
> slightly with a solvent.
This is absolutely true - I've thrown out any number of bottles because buying a fresh bottle of cement was easier (and probably no less expensive) than finding the right solvent. Eventually, it's hard to get the lid off. In addition to finding the solvent in the store, getting it mixed in completely in that narrow-necked bottle has always made thinning the old stuff seem like too much bother.
Karl
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Author: kdk
Date: 2017-08-20 23:28
Thanks for all the suggestions. I have a couple of new options if this cork only lasts months.
On the other hand, after I got the clarinet reassembled, I noticed the very thin noise-silencing cork under the bridge key had come off - probably in the process of replacing the tenon cork. All of a sudden 1 + 1 Bb5 didn't work. Off again came the key stack with the bridge key on it. The remaining adhesive was actually shellac. I chipped it off and cleaned the surface, then put new cork on with [shudder] contact cement. I have shellac - maybe I should have stayed with it. ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-08-21 02:16
I'm not sure if I completely understand whats doing on. The tenon MUST be very clean. You can try alcohol but wear gloves and try acetone. In fact acetone is one of the main compounds in Contact Cement; not alcohol. In fact use gloves when applying the cement to the joint and the cork. Acetone is easy to find. Nail polish removers usually contain it. So get some at your local Walmart or ask your wife, unless you use polish! Once you feel the joint is clean you can lightly use 1000 grit sandpaper to assure every peace of junk is removed off of the tenon. Preparation often takes 30 minutes and putting on the new cork takes less than a minute.
You can use contact cement or shellac. I kinda like contact cement. But there is a trick I use. Once you've cleaned the tenon well then put the cement on the cork and the tenon I like to use a thick rubber band and wrap it over the cork for a few hours. You have to do this with shellac as well. Most people don't do this anymore. Again, really wide rubber bands. If time allows maybe wait a day, although a few hours is probably fine before removing the rubber band. Then I like to us nail files to finish up that perfect fit. Again ask your wife or go to Walmart. A package should last for years, costing about $3.
On some joints I will find the cork too small and we often get that wobble in the horns and the mouthpieces. I then remove the cork and put the joint on a wood lathe and lengthen the width of where the the new cork will go. If you do this extra work the wobbles do away with the new wider corks. You now have a very solid fitting horn.
This is a pet peeve of mine. Seems like EVERY instrument company makes corks too small causing these wobbles. It really bugs me. A huge sign of a lack of any musicians input and why instruments often need a lot of work after you've spent $5000 to $10,000 and up for a new horn and it doesn't work.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2017-08-21 02:47)
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