 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Sean.Perrin
Date: 2017-08-19 20:47
Hi everyone,
So my clarinet is getting to the point where, to be honest, it needs another overhaul. But it's also getting pretty old in general (bought in about 2001) and has been played a TON since then.
Recently the left hand C has been incredibly sharp, but the rest of the instrument seems very well in tune still. Do you think this is simply an issue with the pad heights? Anything else bizarre that could be causing this?
EDIT: It was flat!! Not sharp.
Founder and host of the Clarineat Podcast: http://www.clarineat.com
Post Edited (2017-09-19 07:35)
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2017-08-19 21:12
It could be a pad height problem, or it might be a partly blocked tonehole. Sometimes a build-up of crud from your swab can occlude a hole.
Tony F.
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Author: ClarinetRobt
Date: 2017-08-19 21:54
Sean:
Grab some Q-Tips and 'have after it'. I'm amazed at the funk I've 'scrubbed' out of tone holes...even take keys off to clean them.
~Robt L Schwebel
Mthpc: Behn Vintage
Lig: Ishimori, Behn Delrin
Reed: Legere French Cut 3.75/4, Behn Brio 4
Horns: Uebel Superior (Bb,A), Ridenour Lyrique, Buffet R13 (Eb)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2017-08-19 22:40
Sean, what C do you mean C4 (3 fingers and thumb) or the LH lever C5?
Tony (and Robert), why would a clogged tone hole cause sharpness? Flatness and stuffiness I'd buy in a second, but why would an obstruction in the hole raise the pitch?
Sean, if you're talking about C4, what is the twelfth (G5) like? Is everything normal (response and tone quality) below C?
Karl
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Author: rmk54
Date: 2017-08-19 22:43
Wouldn't a blocked tone hole lower the pitch?
Have you switched mouthpieces or barrels lately?
Is the G a twelfth higher also very sharp? If not, then it sounds like the bore must have changed dimensions.
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Author: RBlack
Date: 2017-08-19 22:44
I would also suggest the possibility of having some kind of lint/gunk buildup in a tonehole. I experienced this on one of my horns, causing massive tuning issues, and also general stuffiness of response and tone.
I think it was caused (in my case at least) by the swab I had been using, leaving a tiny amount off fluff behind every time I swabbed, resulting in the issue becoming noticeable after nearly a year.
Alternate causes could indeed be pad height, a leak, or warping of the bore over time. (As well as countless other reasons)
-Robin
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Author: donald
Date: 2017-08-20 16:53
Hi there,
- gunk built up in toneholes will generally result in notes being a bit flat, rather than sharp, but may also result in you "tensing up" on a note to brighten the sound- which CAN push you sharp. So this is probably not the cause, but may contribute.
- the pad (top pad on lower joint) being set TOO HIGH will sharpen the clarion and altissimo register MORE than the low reg C, and you would probably notice/mention the G being sharp before the C. So this is probably not the cause.
- if a pad is leaking somewhere, it can have an intonation effect on one or more notes, this will tend to sharpen lower register notes but may not have a dramatic effect on the clarion (though it tends to make the tone a bit less clear). By "leak" here I'm suggesting a leak that is not enough to be noticeable (as you usually find these for other reasons before worrying about the tuning) but a tonehole (Eflat/bflat key? C#/G# key?) that is essentially doing its job, but not sealing with even pressure around the tonehole. Check if there is play in the upper joint ring keys- sideplay here can create a situation where the Eflat/Bflat pad (between 1st and 2nd fingers) doesn't seal EVERY TIME, which sharpens C more than D....
- The bore changing as the instruments ages/breaks in/blows out can cause the lower register to go sharp. In my experience it is more likely to sharpen these notes than flatten them. My first R13 had this issue after about 3 years use (and exposure to quite dramatic shifts in temperature and humidity), Francois Kloc was able to rebore the lower joint and HEY PRESTO the intonation returned back to normal (ie how it had been when I originally bought the instrument).
Of course, this is work that should only be done by someone who really knows what they are doing.... and despite all their fans there are stories of even *the most respected pros whose names I dare not mention* leaving instruments worse rather than better after all the reaming and drilling was done.
A good thing to try (as an initial temporary solution) would be to take the ring keys of the lower joint, and fill in the topside of the uppermost tonehole with a small amount of bluetack (I think you call it "ticky-tack"?). This can be easily removed so is a good way to test if it will help before a more permanent substance is used.
Clean the tonehole bore. Roll up a small amount of bluetack into a ball (maybe slightly bigger than the round bobble on a dressmaking pin) and then roll this into a worm shape. Stick this onto the uppermost hemishpere of the tonehole, then use a jewellers screwdriver to flatten it out (being careful none comes up over the tonehole rim, or into the undercut portion of the tonehole).
I know professional players who have clocked up 10+ years, playing hours a day, on clarinets fine tuned with bluetack- but most repair techs would advise only using this for "testing", and then replacing it with something more permanent. It could also be a temporary solution until you can get the bore checked.
dn
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Author: echi85
Date: 2017-08-21 04:03
There are two options:
1.) The bore has actually changed over time. If this is a new occurrence, this is the most likely culprit. I would get it checked by a very competent tech and have it re-reamed.
2.) You can tape the tone holes.
I've never heard of someone using sticky tak for tone holes but hey whatever works. Personally I use electrical tape. It's one of the first things I do whenever I buy a new instrument. Many pro techs use an epoxy or thin layer of cork to do the same thing.
If C4 and the corresponding partials are all sharp, you can put tape in the top tone hole (covered by a pad) on the bottom joint. If you are too lazy or afraid to take off the ring, you can also put it into the hole your right hand index finger covers although it will also flatten more directly middle finger B/F#.
If you are talking about C5, you're out of luck. Putting tape in that hole will flatten the already flat low F.
IMO, this technique is essential for good Eb clarinet playing. I have never tried a stock Eb clarinet that did not need taping. There is a chapter in the back of the Working Clarinetist by Peter Hadcock that discusses this.
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Author: donald
Date: 2017-08-21 05:12
Leon Russianof has an excellent chapter in his books where he outlines a "method" for testing and tuning clarinets. He suggests using cork grease to (temporarily) fill in tone holes. Jack Brymer used plasticine. Whatever works- I've always found tape to be quite fiddly, I've seen tone holes filled with multiple layers of nail varnish (which I found too time consuming when I tried it). When I get home I'll post a photo... Anything that fills in the hole and doesn't cause another problem (and can be easily reversed if need be) will work.
Dn
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-08-21 06:31
Should be an easy fix, but you have to check the 10th above it. The G. Hopefully that is sharp too.
If they are both sharp and you don't want to tackle this yourself send the horn to me at no charge. It's about a 15 minute job.
If the G is in tune, well it could be a lot of things, the bore of your mouthpiece, the barrel taper, and a badly warped joint. This I don't want to get into. Your best choice would be to send it to someone like Guy Chadash who has the boring tooling, plus decent barrels, both of which I do not have. Another repairman would be Bob Scott in East Lansing, MI. He makes barrels and does amazing repairs.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2017-08-21 06:36
What brand of clarinet is it? Was it new in 2001? 16 years isn't really very old for a clarinet (unless you believe they're all blown out after 7).
Karl
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2017-08-21 08:16
By left hand C do you mean the low C, coming out of the top tone hole on the lower section?
If you are, the first question is how is the intonation of the clarion G (same fingering with register key)? If you mean something else, the question is still about intonation of the same fingering in the other register.
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Author: Sean.Perrin
Date: 2017-08-21 08:28
Low C people. Sorry that wasn't clear. I meant the C when all left hand fingers are pressed, not he thumb C.
It's a Buffet Festival that was new when I bought it.
Switched the issue today by switching to another clarinet when practicing haha.
But upon inspection the cork/felt is worn down and needs to be replaced. I think the pad is too high.
Founder and host of the Clarineat Podcast: http://www.clarineat.com
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Author: Sean.Perrin
Date: 2017-08-25 01:33
Haha strange enough I actually don't like that system, and a lot of non-keyboard players won't know what you mean.
I don't like how it's based around the piano.
I think that middle C should be C0 because it's in the middle of the grand staff. It's the centre point.
Then the octave above should be C1, and the one below C-1. Makes more sense to me!
Founder and host of the Clarineat Podcast: http://www.clarineat.com
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2017-08-25 04:48
Sean.Perrin wrote:
> Then the octave above should be C1, and the one below C-1.
> Makes more sense to me!
>
There's not really a meaningful difference between starting with C0 at the low end (with "middle C" = C4) and calling "middle C" C0 (apart from the extra keystroke needed to add the negative signs), and if everyone here agreed to use it and not C4, it would be just as clear. But middle C = C4 is a convention that's apparently widely used even outside the music world, so it's hard to see why it would be good to confuse things with another numbering.
I think it matters less how much sense a naming system makes to an individual than how well a general agreement has been established among a group in order to communicate among its members. The system that sets "middle C" as C4 wasn't invented here, and it isn't entirely connected to the piano keyboard, at least not the modern one, because C0 is a sixth below the lowest piano note. I assume it's extensible up beyond the piano's highest note and that scientists use it that way.
Can you describe pitches in other ways? Sure! But not without more words. If writers want to talk about "third line on the treble staff B" or "clarion A to altissimo C#," we'll know what you mean. If you ask about "LH C#" (or LH C) we may not. The system of numbering octaves of the C scale from C0 involves two characters, is clear and economical, and IMO not hard enough to understand to make all the fuss resisting it worthwhile.
kdk (Karl)
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Author: Sean.Perrin
Date: 2017-09-19 02:41
So folks... I found the solution!
The more I played the more I was mystified. The C4 was very out of tune but I was also finding anomalies that had not previously existed everywhere!
I started becoming very concerned about a crack or something, and started inspecting everything very thoroughly. Then I noticed that a 1mm tuning ring had somehow gotten stuck on the inside of the bottom socket!
Hilarious! I usually use them in my barrel if needed and it must have fallen in at some point and then gotten stuck in there for a couple weeks.
Took it out and problem solved!
Thanks for the thoughts everyone!
Founder and host of the Clarineat Podcast: http://www.clarineat.com
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2017-09-19 03:43
When anyone posts on this site, there's a picture of C4, so labelled, right in front of them on every page, just to the right of the logo, "The Clarinet BBoard". While that may be easy to overlook, it does make it harder to argue that some other system is simpler.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-09-19 03:48
This is why brightly coloured tuning rings are better than black ones - they're much easier to see if they get lodged in sockets.
I have a set that are red, yellow and blue depending on the thickness (1, 1.5 and 2mm, but can't remember without seeing them which is which). I think Howarth also made red, white and green ones.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: saxlite
Date: 2017-09-19 04:24
Somehow I fail to see why an extraneous tuning ring between the sections would produce a sharper ( rather than flatter ) C4 pitch. Could use some help here.....
Jerry
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Author: Sean.Perrin
Date: 2017-09-19 07:34
Sorry the middle line C was flat.
In my head I wasthinking it needs to be sharper and wrote "sharp"... stupid mistake sorry all!
Founder and host of the Clarineat Podcast: http://www.clarineat.com
Post Edited (2017-09-19 07:37)
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2017-09-19 07:41
So, it wasn't incredibly sharp, it was flat. Because there was a tuning ring stuck where it shouldn't be that escaped notice. And now it's "middle line C", whatever that is, whereas before you said it was low C, which the standard nomenclature and most other posters here label as C4, but you don't like that. And you are the host of a clarinet podcast.
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Author: Sean.Perrin
Date: 2017-09-19 08:52
Yes it's "low" C for the clarinet, middle C according to the grand staff, "line" C, C4, or whatever else we would like to call it.
I do host a podcast, Philip, and it's listened to all over the world by thousands of clarinetists every month. I invite you to check it out, and I hope you enjoy it! It does not make me immune to making mistakes, and my share of internet typos. After all, I am only human.
Thanks all!
Founder and host of the Clarineat Podcast: http://www.clarineat.com
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Author: TomS
Date: 2017-09-19 21:18
Love your podcasts, Sean! Your interview with Stanley Drucker was the best I've heard, not bogged down with technical jargon or pedagogical opinions ... just about Stanley and his life and musical experiences.
Great stuff always ... not missed one program!
Tom
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2017-09-20 02:33
Why is anyone giving Sean #*%% about what C4 is
I personally call it low C, (or Chalumeau not that I can spell it without looking it up), Middle C (Clarion) and high C.
Over that is Altissimo.
But to add "you have a podcast" and bust on him is wrong.
Just be nice - it's not a big deal
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
Post Edited (2017-09-20 02:45)
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The Clarinet Pages
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