 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: M123
Date: 2017-08-18 21:25
Hi guys,
I'm new to the forum here but need some qualified input on my daughters clarinet. My daughter took an interest in the clarinet during her schools compulsory introduction to band. She seemed committed enough that I decided to buy her a better instrument than what the school would issue and not knowing anything about woodwinds got online and did quite a bit of research online and chose to purchase a Ridenour 576 Bb on ebay from them that was advertised as gently used and was informed it was traded in for a newer instrument. I avoided the new price but it was still a significant number. Ordered a Ridenour Encore mouthpiece for it and figured I wouldn't have to look back. Signed her up for lessons this summer and on maybe her seventh lesson the instructor told her that she had been playing flat and checks it with a tuner sees a flat "open G" and said she may need to get another instrument. They tried a different mouthpiece with some improvement but still flat. That's the short version of what my daughter told me. I wasn't there so can't fully convey what transpired there. So I took it to the tech at the local music store this morning and had her check it out to see if there was a quick fix. She played it with a tester and she said and I could see some of the notes were flat and some were sharp by the needle going way left or right. She informed me the market was flooded with cheap Chinese instruments that could never fully be adjusted and that she didn't recognize the brand, pointed to the models for sale on the wall, etc...I don't fault her for not knowing the brand but that gets my attention. She said something about the position of the holes and maybe shimming and bending the keys but wasn't encouraging about the result and didn't push the service. Now I'm under the impression that I have a bigger problem than trying a new barrel or mouthpiece. Part of the reason I went with the brand was because a lot of the reviews (some on this forum) claimed the brand was good at being in tune but now I have two people who I believe are competent saying there is a tuning issue. I haven't checked in with the instructor which is something I intend to do. Not trying to dog on the maker but thought I was buying in at a point that would avoid major tuning issues. I haven't contacted the maker yet, but wanted to see what opinions may come from your collective knowledge before I throw good money after bad. Is this likely a correctable issue-enough to warrant a trip to the factory.
Thanks in advance.
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Author: echi85
Date: 2017-08-18 21:36
It is quite common for throat tones, particularly open G, to be flat for younger students. In my experience, it usually because the reed to mouthpiece ratio is out of whack or the student has not developed a good embouchure/tongue position.
My advice would be to have your teacher play the instrument using the mouthpiece/reed that your daughter uses. Check the pitch. Then have your teacher play the instrument using his/her own mouthpiece/reed. Check the pitch. If it is flat under both circumstances, the pad underneath the A key may be too low or the barrel is too long (unlikely but possible). If it plays in tune in either case, it's your daughter.
Last thing is to make sure the instrument is warmed up sufficiently. If you pick up a cold clarinet, it will always be flat in the short tube notes (open G).
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Author: ClarinetRobt
Date: 2017-08-18 21:37
Call Ted Ridenour, super nice guy, and tell him of your situation. 1-888-258-7845
My experience with Ted and Tom's service has been exemplary.
~Robt L Schwebel
Mthpc: Behn Vintage
Lig: Ishimori, Behn Delrin
Reed: Legere French Cut 3.75/4, Behn Brio 4
Horns: Uebel Superior (Bb,A), Ridenour Lyrique, Buffet R13 (Eb)
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Author: gwie
Date: 2017-08-18 22:00
Beginners who have not developed their airstream or embouchure play flat. This is why some student instruments were made with sharp tuning in the throat tones, in order to mitigate this sort of issue when kids learn those first few notes and make things more bearable for the band teacher in elementary-age group instruction. Ridenour doesn't do this to any of his models, which need to play properly for everyone, not just beginners. I'm sort of surprised that your daughter's teacher doesn't know this.
As for the shop, we can't fault them for sticking with what they know of their authorized dealer brands, which for clarinets pretty much is Buffet, maybe Yamaha, and whatever Conn-Selmer is selling these days. For the tuning, it's hard to say. Someone who has only played say, Buffet their entire life, will find the basic intonation of a different brand somewhat wonky their first time out, because they've always compensated for the tuning characteristics of a particular brand, and have to become familiar with a different set of parameters to be in tune. And to be honest, no clarinet is perfectly "in tune." We all have to learn how an instrument behaves and provide the appropriate input to make it function...depending on an individual's setup it is easier for them to accomplish this on some instruments versus others.
I would contact the Ridenours directly, as they have excellent customer service. See if they will get you a slightly shorter barrel that your daughter can use for the time to keep her pitch up until her playing develops some more.
My experience with their instruments is a purchase of a Lyrique A clarinet for use by my students in my school orchestra. The instrument gets played a lot and has held up well over several years. My only complaint is that the keywork is not of the quality of the big brands, but then again, the instrument only cost me a fraction of that of its competitors so it is acceptable.
Post Edited (2017-08-18 22:01)
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Author: M123
Date: 2017-08-18 22:01
I believe that the teacher tried both his and her mouthpiece with basically the same result. I mentioned maybe a shorter barrel to the tech and she seemed to think that would not help in this case. It came with two barrels and my daughter uses the shorter one that I mic'd at 64mm. The longer one doesn't sound as good in general. Pad under the A key sounds like something to look into. I didn't think hard rubber instruments were less prone to temp issues. The teacher had checked with a tuner after the lesson and the shops tech checked it after being in a car...don't know if that's different than being warmed up by playing. Thank you.
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Author: M123
Date: 2017-08-18 22:29
To gwie above, interesting comments. I had read that younger players have a tendency to be a bit flat which may be why the teacher waited a bit to point it out? The tech who checked it out seemed to know her way around a clarinet when she checked the notes on the tuner. The teacher plays in a couple of symphonies and teaches clarinet at a nearby college and has a doctor of music degree. I think he has quite a bit of experience with young and older students. Maybe the tech expects too little and the teacher expects too much? Keeping an open mind here so not at a walk away from it frame of mind. My lack of experience with these things makes me a bit apprehensive. Is it hard for an experienced player to play in tune on an unfamiliar instrument?
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Author: echi85
Date: 2017-08-18 22:34
How flat are we talking here? Closer to 5 cents or 20? A 64 barrel on a standard Bb clarinet is 2 mm too short so there has to be something wrong. What mouthpiece did the teacher use? I find that M series Vandoren mouthpieces tend to play flat in the throat tones. What strength reeds? I assume that you are testing it without any resonance fingerings? Are the other throat tone notes out of tune?
You can have the tone hole under the A key undercut if you need be. I had it done on my R13 when I first got it. It's one of those notes that it's better to be a little high than a little low.
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Author: M123
Date: 2017-08-18 22:59
echi85 wrote:
> How flat are we talking here? Closer to 5 cents or 20? A 64
> barrel on a standard Bb clarinet is 2 mm too short so there has
> to be something wrong. What mouthpiece did the teacher use? I
> find that M series Vandoren mouthpieces tend to play flat in
> the throat tones. What strength reeds? I assume that you are
> testing it without any resonance fingerings? Are the other
> throat tone notes out of tune?
>
> You can have the tone hole under the A key undercut if you need
> be. I had it done on my R13 when I first got it. It's one of
> those notes that it's better to be a little high than a little
> low.
I'll try to answer-I think more like 25, the tuner showed 45 degree to the left of center as well as 30? degrees right of center on a note on the high end. Don't know what the kind of mouthpiece the teacher has. My daughter uses a Ridenour Encore mouthpiece with 3.5 Mitchell reeds that were recommended by the teacher. Resonance fingerings is not a term I understand but I was told the instructor asked for an open G. As for other notes, the tech played a scale and they trended flat on the mouthpiece end and sharp on the bell end. Pardon my lack of knowledge here. The depth of my ability with a clarinet is limited to borrowing it for an attempt to blow one note which took an alarming amount of effort. Then I gave it back to her.
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Author: echi85
Date: 2017-08-18 23:25
I would advise you to contact Ted Ridenour with the issue. There could be many things at play here, but if the pitch is wildly flat and then wildly sharp, there has to be something wrong with how it was built.
Is your teacher a pro? Mitchell Lurie reeds run soft and usually weaken considerable after 2-3 days. It could still be a resistance issue, but I think more likely an instrument problem.
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Author: M123
Date: 2017-08-19 00:12
echi85 wrote:
> I would advise you to contact Ted Ridenour with the issue.
> There could be many things at play here, but if the pitch is
> wildly flat and then wildly sharp, there has to be something
> wrong with how it was built.
>
> Is your teacher a pro? Mitchell Lurie reeds run soft and
> usually weaken considerable after 2-3 days. It could still be a
> resistance issue, but I think more likely an instrument
> problem.
Seems to be a consistent recommendation to contact Ridenour from some others as well. I do believe the teacher is a pro. Plays in a couple of symphonies, has a doctorate in music, teaches clarinet at a somewhat prestigious private college nearby and has checked out a couple of times this summer for paying gigs out of state. Thought that we were pretty lucky to have him in driving range. When my daughter conveyed what he said "that you may need a new instrument" it gets my attention. Maybe my best course of action is to touch base with the teacher to cut out the middle man and then contact Ridenour. Thanks for the input.
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Author: ClarinetRobt
Date: 2017-08-19 00:44
Please keep us posted. I'm always curious to how these things work out. Your experience is a great learning opportunity for us.
~Robt L Schwebel
Mthpc: Behn Vintage
Lig: Ishimori, Behn Delrin
Reed: Legere French Cut 3.75/4, Behn Brio 4
Horns: Uebel Superior (Bb,A), Ridenour Lyrique, Buffet R13 (Eb)
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-08-19 00:55
I'd probably try to save some money and have Tom work on the horn. Change the barrel, he also makes mouthpieces and have him set up the horn for your daughter.
Mitchell Lurie reeds are full of pesticides. So stay away from Rico products for her safety. At one point about 20 plus years ago I was in charge of his reeds and the cane was carefully harvested using only French cane. After I left and shortly later, after his death, things changed and his reeds were like any other reed.
His reeds were actually cut twice to improve precision, accuracy, and quality. He was a great man and we had a fond friendship.
I would suggest the player to develop a strong embouchure by considering playing a few minutes using a double lip. There is so much to read about this. Then after she has the horn adjusted by Tom, the maker of this instrument, fitted with a barrel maybe, also a mouthpieces perhaps, she will be OK.
Also get away from those dang Rico products. We don't want her exposed to pesticides. Call Rico if you don't believe me; that their reeds are pesticide free.
Don't buy any Vandoren M series mouthpieces as they will play flat, making this situation worse. But you also don't have to pay $300 and up for a mouthpiece to solve this problem.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: TomS
Date: 2017-08-19 18:49
I've had very good luck on intonation on my Ridenour Libertas and Speranza (similar to 576). But, I've always played up to pitch on most clarinets.
BTW, it's not just beginners that play flat ... some adults (especially at my age or older) that are rusty, tired, wrong setup, sick, don't give a rat's behind or poorly trained have poor intonation.
We have a person, in one ensemble that I participate in, that has been playing for decades, and on a Buffet R13. Quite flat most places, especially in the throat tones ... and apparently can't hear how bad it sounds. I might add that timbre and intonation usually go together ... this person also has a terrible sound, poor articulation and control ... and also, apparently tone deaf. Other MPs and reeds and instruments have been tried and the same problems ...
In most cases, and with a good horn, and if you sound good, your tuning will be OK.
Call Ted Ridenour ... let him know. Tom Ridenour may have some suggestions too ... if he is available.
Tom
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