 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: zhangray4
Date: 2017-08-01 21:03
Ever since I got my R13 nearly 2 years ago, I've stop playing on my E11 France and put it in my closet, unless I perform in an outdoor gig or play in the stands for our high school football games. So I haven't compared the two for a long time.
The original E11 was made by Schreiber in Germany, and the E11 France was produced after Buffet bought the Leblanc Factory in France, and they basically told Schreiber to stop making their E11's, but continue making their B10 & B12 clarinets, as well as intermediate level oboes. [Source: https://www.kesslerandsons.com/blog/the-confusing-history-of-the-buffet-e11-clarinet/]
When I bought my R13, I tested around 10 of them, and also compared them to my E11 France. At the time, I felt the R13 was just way better as it gave me a sound with more depth, although I felt I had to use more air.
I got my E11 France out of the closet yesterday to play it, God know why. I guess I just wanted to see how much difference there was. However, after playing on both for a good amount of time, I realized that I like the sound I got on the E11 France better than my R13! Yes the R13 gives more depth to the sound, but the E11 France gives me a warmer, rounder tone. I wouldn't call it dark.
Although I still think the R13 is easier to control than the E11 France though. I just think the E11 France has a better sound, never said it was the better horn in my opinion.
What can be the explanation for this? How can a student/intermediate level clarinet produce a warmer, rounder sound than a professional level clarinet, especially of the same brand? What are some of the structural differences between the two horns that cause a big difference? When I got the E11 France is 6th grade, I think I remember them saying that the "improvements" was that the bore was slightly narrower and that there was no bell ring. The keywork feels slightly different as well.
Just a high school senior who wants to learn how instrument design can affect the sound/tone. And a curious homo sapien who wants to learn the "why/how" aspect instead of just the "wow" aspect. ![[cool]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/cool.gif)
-- Ray Zhang
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2017-08-01 21:45
To find out the "nuts and bolts" physical reasons why the R13 has a deeper sound, you would have to talk to the right designers, acousticians, and techs for info on tone hole placement and undercutting, bore taper and polishing and more. It is easier to understand, however, that Buffet intentionally designed the E11 to be easier to play by intermediate and advancing players, and the R13 is deliberately made for professionals or advanced students who need an instrument that will project well in an orchestra. The added depth you hear is the main reason for the long success of the R13 (and its big brother the Prestige R13) in American symphony orchestras. The depth and the ring tone (along with excellent responsiveness) in the R13 are the characteristics that swayed American players to switch in the late 1950s and early 1960s from Selmer to Buffet (even if they had to have Hans Moening tweak the Buffets to play well). Arguably, Selmer instruments always were rounder and warmer sounding than Buffets. But in an orchestra, round and warm sounds may not reach the back wall the way deep and resonant ones do.
Post Edited (2017-08-02 06:16)
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2017-08-01 23:40
"What can be the explanation for this?"
One explanation:
Envision the pool of all E11's to sit on a range of quality from 1 - 8.
Envision the pool of all R13's to sit on a range of quality from 2 - 10.
Clearly, there's overlap there. There numbers may be off, but the principle isn't. And you may be experiencing some of this quality overlap phenomenon.
Many of us would say that we don't think the R13 a great instrument so much as we think certain R13's of the entire pool, maybe many, but by no means all, to be great, particularly ones produced during the Golden Era cited below.
Also, your clarinet's dimensions may have shifted slightly since purchase.
It is well accepted fact, Francios Kloc of Buffet won't deny, that R13s produced during the Golden Era (I'll loosely say late 50's to mid 70's for others to correct) contain the wood only found in higher Buffet models today.
(We've argued to the end of time how materials affect sound--but if lesser quality wood correlates with cracking or dimension change susceptibility, this can't be good.)
Mr. Monie covered the technical explanation (if not the detail thereof), so rather than rehash, I'll provide the marketing one: even if I've probably said it in quite a few posts.
Product manufacturers provide various levels of product for one reason and one reason only: profit. This isn't a sin, in fact, the outcome of this is more choice for the consumer--which economists see as a good thing (the recent discussions on the flood of clarinet gear notwithstanding.)
Ray, if I may be so bold, maybe you might have purchased the Tosca rather than the R13 if money were no objective.
Conversely, maybe you would have purchased nothing, at least new, from Buffet if the Tosca was its only product offering.
Buffet, like all commercial outfits, wants to sell the Tosca to those capable of buying it at the profitable price, and less expensive models to those who can only afford Buffet's profitable price for these models. It's called "capturing the market," across various ranges of the consumer's pocket size.
Slightly OT, envision the market for some new basketball sneaker endorsed by a top NBA player. It's likely to sell for a King's Ransom when first released, but say 2 years later, when other newer models have dethroned it, the maker is glad to sell it for less, albeit still at a (less) profitable price, to capture the market with time, (in addition to the above example of product differentiation) in the above example.
Ever see an infomercial product sell, years after introduction, for a fraction of the initial price?....: capturing the market with time.
Now, by no means am I claiming, say, the Tosca and R13 to be the same thing in quality. But I will claim that their quality is probably a lot closer than their price.
So too, me thinks, the E11 and your R13. (Disclaimer: I play a Golden Era R13.)
There are many product offerings, particularly technical ones, that are clearly segmented with greater correlation of price and quality. Some are desingned better, with better materials, tested more rigorously and have longer lives (MTBF http://tinyurl.com/yatevycu ) and [more comprehensive] warranties.
I'm not sure, as long as clarinets are made of wood, that they can be an example of one.
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Author: TomS
Date: 2017-08-02 00:15
My fairly new R13 Greenline has overall better depth and weight than my last R13 in wood. I wish I'd originally purchased the Greenline instrument years ago, instead of the wooden one ... salesman talked me out of it (called it "particle board" ...). I think the newest Greenline clarinets are consistent and exceptional ... It may be that Buffet has tweaked the recipe for their composite material since the early models, to make it more durable a (less tendency to break) and possibly sound better ...
The density of the material may play an important role in sound ... the Ridenour hard rubber clarinets have a warmer sound, in part, I believe, due to the lighter material. The Backun Alpha has a nice sound, but less weight to the sound and you can feel the material vibrate under your fingers more ... Your E11 may be constructed of cheaper, less dense wood, from the outermost part of the tree trunk ... therefore warmer sound ...
R13 does have a really nice sweetness and projection and very good response, although having some issues that the Ridenour clarinets have solved.
The thing about swapping back and forth on clarinets and other equipment is that the new or retired old thing you try seems to be always the best ... if it lies dormant in a box or closet, rejected and alone, a retry generally will elicit the response: "Wow! What was I thinking? This is GREAT!" You may come full circle ... I have several times ...
Tom
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Author: echi85
Date: 2017-08-02 04:27
Have you played them for a teacher or professional? Have you recorded yourself on them, if you have access? Often, I find my perceptions about a piece of equipment are different from 10 ft. away.
FWIW, I have played a few great Schreiber E11s. I regularly use a Schreiber E11 Eb clarinet professionally that I prefer over many other top end models including the RC Prestige and Yamaha 881. If you come to a firm conclusion after testing, I see no reason why you shouldn't use your E11. You certainly shouldn't feel any shame in using it. In the words of Duke Ellington, "if it sounds good, it is good." Just be sure.
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Author: zhangray4
Date: 2017-08-02 05:13
Hi all, thanks for your replies! I'll try to respond to everyone's comments, as well as insert some new info.
I do take the "ping" aspect of the sound into consideration; I know that's what makes the sound project. Yes I guess the R13 has more of it, and maybe Buffet didn't want to take away the projection aspect of the sound. Good point.
Another great point mentioned was the quality of the wood. I haven't weighed the two to compare, but that's simply because I don't need to. The R13 is definitely heavier, and I can see a significant increase in the thickness of the wood at the bell and the lower joint. Sadly I do know that the R13s of the 60s are more like the modern-day Toscas (in terms of quality of wood).
[A little digression, but didn't Buffet also widen the bore of the R13 in the 70s or some time around there?]
When I got my R13 at RDG, my teacher went with me to help listen to me. He also played on the instruments too to see how they felt, not just how they sounded. At the time, both my teacher and I felt the R13 was better than the E11. And after purchase, the R13 did get set-up by Levi at RDG, and play tested as well. The E11, at the time, had gotten a crack extending from the top of the upper joint to almost the highest trill key. So we contacted Buffet and after a lot of trouble, we got a replacement upper joint (since it was within the warranty). During the process, my E11 was repadded and play tested but was not "set-up."
One person said that the R13 needed some work. Given the context, I would argue that the R13 received more care than the E11.
All in all, I do not think the E11 is better overall; I still think it has the sound I am looking for: round and warm, but the projection is not lacking since I've played on it for a long time and I was always heard. The R13 is better at playing soft: the E11 just starts to get airy if I try to play it as soft as the R13.
When I used to play on my E11 though, my tone stood out, in a good way. Dr. Corporon of UNT complimented it, and although in auditions I have never been able to play technical passages as fast as most, I am surprised to find that I beat them in auditions. It's not like my sight reading is outstanding either. It's confusing...
-- Ray Zhang
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Author: echi85
Date: 2017-08-02 05:53
In my experience, R13s can be put into two categories. Free blowing and tight. My very first R13 was in the first category and I can no longer use it because it feels far too open after years of playing. My current R13 was in the second category. It felt overly tight with greater back pressure for the first few years but has since really opened up into an instrument that holds the sound.
The feel of the instrument is important but the sound is really all that matters. The problem with testing most new R13s is that they leak. Resistance can be a function of the condition an instrument is in. If you can find the tonal characteristics you are looking for in an instrument and the 12ths are close, you should buy it. Once it's broken in and overhauled, the resistance should be much lower. You can do the suction test to check both of your instruments to see what kind of condition they are in now.
If you ever purchase another new instrument, I would do a double blind test with the help of a teacher or friend so that you can find which one you like most. It would be great if you could do this over a series of days so things have time to settle. This is the process I've used for every new instrument I have purchased and I have yet to be disappointed.
You should know that dynamic is really not a function of the instrument unless it is leaking. If you find you can play softer on the R13 vs the E11 with the same mouthpiece, reed, ligature, and most importantly reed placement, then there is a mechanical problem with the E11.
Lastly, I would be cautious about opinions from band directors, even really great ones. I grew up, live, and work in Texas which is band central. The amount of misinformation from band directors is astonishing. I sympathize because it is a very difficult job to do with little pay, but unless the band director is a competent clarinetist, he/she probably doesn't know what they are talking about. They are probably relying on words from someone else, a version of telephone if you will. Understand that I am making a large generalization so there will always be people who DO know what they are talking about. It's just I have yet to encounter these people, even at the university level. I don't think it's surprising that the best teachers are or have been great players.
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2017-08-02 13:19
For our recent concert, as we had some shortages, we got some help from an orchestra in from the Netherlands and all their clarinets seem to be Buffet. I asked to play-test a C12 and was surprised how my more expensive RC just doesn't sound any better, in fact it seemed more free blowing in the higher register and didn't require using the Eb lever for high D correction as much as my RC undoubtedly does. The keywork on my clarinet is better though.
That being said, I'd definitely compare instruments as the posters above recommended. I still cannot get over the fact how different the tonal qualities of a Buffet can be and deeply regret spending 3k€ on my instrument. Not to bad-mouth this manufacturer, but I feel others have less variation. Buffet can make fine clarinets to be sure, you just have to pick the right one on your own and ignore their vast line-up, just buy the one that you feel to work best for you.
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Author: richard smith
Date: 2017-08-04 18:13
they leave the factory with little refinement or quality control. An article on this subject appeared in The Clarinet years ago. Portnoy told me he tried every Buffet at the factory and found much difference among all. try before buy.
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Author: zhangray4
Date: 2017-08-04 19:00
The thing is I did try them out before buying. I had my teacher play them and also listen to me. At the time, I was only a sophomore in high school and didn't pay attention to the different clarinet tones. I just stuck to the tone I had and improved upon it. Now that I am going to be a senior in a few days, a few days ago I realized the difference in tone the two instruments make.
Also after I purchased the R13, it got set up by someone at Rdg.
-- Ray Zhang
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2017-08-06 08:55
Regardless of the sound, the E11 France has a manufacturing defect, that's probably why it was discontinued so fast and replaced with the E12 (which had this problem fixed). The E11 France had possibly the most marketing when it came out (even its own website) but the quietest disappearance...
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Author: zhangray4
Date: 2017-08-07 03:14
Yes I have heard people say of the defects of the E11 France. What exact defects are they talking about? At first I had problems playing
![[C#4]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/db4.gif) and ![[D4]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/d4.gif)
when trying to play it at pianissimo. I would get this bubbly sound as if I has spit in a key. My teacher tried it out and said it felt weird.
Any other defects you guys know of for the E11 France?
-- Ray Zhang
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2017-08-07 05:23
The biggest defect of the E11 France is how the posts are installed. They are glued instead of being threaded into the body and they can move or even fall out. I find that the problem is often exaggerated and as long as you are careful it should be okay(It's not like Buffet is the only company that did this). A good repairman should be able to fix any problems that arise.
If you like the E11 then play the E11 and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. No reason to play an instrument you don't like as much just because it's what all the cool kids play...
Edit: Also with the glued post it is harder to remove them should a problem arise. A good tech who knows what he is doing should be able to get the job done although it might be difficult. This is only a problem if your instrument needs repairs that require a post to be removed. Again I don't think this is something to worry to much about at the moment. If your instrument develops a problem you can always switch back to the R13
-Jdbassplayer
Post Edited (2017-08-07 05:30)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2017-08-07 09:35
>> The biggest defect of the E11 France is how the posts are installed. They are glued instead of being threaded into the body and they can move or even fall out. I find that the problem is often exaggerated ... <<
I did mean the posts. They are supposedly glued (at least that's how Buffet suggested to repair them), but whenever I had to remove one - usually because it was loose or fell off - it didn't seem to be glued at all, just friction fit.
The problem is not exaggerated. Just like most people don't have the plastic pins break, it is a matter of statistics. I'd say loose posts on the E11 France was a very significant problem statistically. In the worst cases they made it impossible to play, but they can cause all sorts of other issues too.
Simply gluing them back is not as simple as it might seem. Because it is a friction fit, just putting glue would push it out, so at least a slot needs to be cut for the air. It's not difficult and doesn't take a long time, but Buffet's suggestion was to simply glue them. If someone just followed that "recipe" the post would likely become loose again pretty fast. The glue I prefer for this is slow, so to do reliably it can't be done while someone is waiting.
Plus it had what looked almost like a "silent recall"... I don't know if they actually replaced stock but the special website and advertisement disappeared and I know of a couple of cases where they were replaced with new E12 under warranty.
I'm writing this mainly in case someone is considering an E11 France (probably used) and somehow gets here to find info.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2017-08-09 08:33
Another bad problem of the E11 France is that the upper joint is not at all "normal" in terms of being able to find a custom barrel for it. The upper joint exit is so large that no off the shelf barrel will fit it.
Not the icon, not the Backun.
Of course you can measure and order a replacement, but forget trying several as none will fit.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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