 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Bbjin
Date: 2017-07-29 12:26
Has anyone tried out the new estro ligature from Silverstein? If so, have you also tried out their cryo4? I currently own a cryo4 ligature and I would really like to know if anyone has felt signifcant differences between the two. Thanks!
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2017-07-30 00:08
I received one yesterday and have spent a couple hours with it. I already had a Bb Original and an Eb Cryo4, so it's not a direct comparison, but close. For me and on my setup, the Estro has a noticeably stronger, more centered sound that's less likely to get an undesirable edge than the Original with borderline reeds. Can't meaningfully compare either with an Eb, but the differences between the Estro and the Original are stiffer cord, the cryogenic process, the plating, and thicker, more fixed adjustment bars that actually rest on the mouthpiece. Of all those, I tend to think the bars being in contact with the mouthpiece is the most significant, because it extends the effect of the A-frame mechanism resting on the mouthpiece under some tension, which is probably the main design feature that sets the Silversteins apart. It adds even more acoustic mass to the mouthpiece, and that's what I like about them. The bars are off the mouthpiece on the Cryo4. I also think the Cryo4 plating is a little garish, but wouldn't make a decision on that basis. I'm happy with the upgrade, but if I didn't have a decent day job, I wouldn't pay anything like that for a ligature. And then, of course, the embedded zircons balance out your chakras, so your phrasing is way more profound. Really wish they didn't do stuff like that; must be a big city thing.
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Author: RLarm
Date: 2017-07-30 07:15
I just read the comments about Silverstein's new Estro ligature.I'm an equipment geek.I am single, no mortgage and no kids' college tuition to worry about paying so I can indulge myself in this expensive "disease." As a result I have spent far too much money on an incredible amount of equipment ranging in price from cheap to ultra-expensive. Honestly, what can one one do with 5 Bb and 6 A professional model clarinets? Am I intending to do a Rahsaan Roland Kirk and appear on next year's America's Got Talent? Silverstein recently came out with their excellent cryogenic ligature and now they already have another model out. Good God, how many models does Buffet come out with each year? I didn't even know they had dumped the Divine until reading a post on the CBB. What is one to do? Should you be an idiot like myself and buy and/or try every new model instrument, mouthpiece, ligature, reed etc. that suddenly appears on the market but then suddenly disappears off the market? Back in the day day Buffet meant just one specific pro model. Now it can one mean anyone of over 6 different models. And I am not even talking about the boutique brands that pop up out of nowhere. Some have staying power while others quickly fall to the wayside. At what point does the market hit the point where the poor customer says,"Enough is enough. Let's use the money on something more practical such as a new car or college tuition." When do we know? I am interested in hearing what will be definitely very interesting responses.. (And don't ask me how I ended up with 17 3.75 Legere European Signature reeds.)
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2017-07-30 08:30
BLarm, hear that. Played the Estro at a piano trio rehearsal tonight. The pianist noticed a difference without my saying anything and said she liked it, "wow" being the operative phrase. Asked the 'cellist, and she said she noticed something but didn't say anything. Said it sounded like some kind of chocolate. With women, that tends to be a good thing. That's how I decide. Some people say ligatures don't matter to how we sound, and some say they do. We can't really say, but the people we play with can.
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2017-07-30 19:33
I'm really going to try to approach this logically. I'll fail at purity, because I'm only human, but I'll attempt to approach it by, at the very least, disclosing disbelief, having tried Silverstein ligatures, and played for 40 years, that their products improve play, let alone to a level consistent with their price.
If it were me, in fact I think if it were most logical people, especially outside the clarinet space where desperation for marginal improvements in play, I feel, leads to irrational purchase decision making, that before we spent our money on top of the line products we'd have more confidence in their fitness than "we can't really say [if this gear will deliver results, let alone consistent with its price.]"
We'd seek testing, either our own or that of unbiased reviewers that consistent with the scientific method, tried to hold everything constant but one thing, in this case the ligature, over repeated trials. This would include changing ligatures as quickly as possible not only because everything can change from one performance session to another, but reviewers can quickly forget the base sound they are comparing the new one to and reviews, subjective as they already are, can be further compromised.
Still more, we'd provide reviewers with a forum in which honest opinion is most likely to occur, which is not likely to happen among fellow players of a trio, especially when one is solicited, just prior to performance.
Mr. Bainbridge: I hope and believe you played lovely, and that your fellow musicians opinions were, if not heartfelt (which I hope they were,) then not lies. I too would take chocolate sounding as a compliment.
To all: consider that Silverstein has tried the very tests I've described, hoping they'd find the results I seek, eager to publish them if they did, failed, and said nothing.
And if they haven't, for the money they're charging, consider that they should, posting their findings irrespective of results.
As if the marginal differences in play between a decent ligature and a Silverstein weren't questionable enough, now we're pitting one Silverstein against another?
I'm not against justified gear improvement. I do though fear, someday, being told, "grandpa, nobody in their right mind pairs a Buffet Legende with a Silverstein Maestro and Valentino pads in the pinky tone holes."
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Author: RLarm
Date: 2017-07-30 23:05
Woodwind doesn't even list the Estro as of last night. That's one of my points - the FLOOD of products that are introduced to the oversaturated market and discovered only by checking the CCB multiple times everyday.
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2017-07-31 02:07
RLarm, I think the upper end models are only available from their online store. They sent out an email last week about the things being 15% off through July, so it was a good time to get one if one were going to do that. It was probably the same this year, but last year at Clarinetfest, you could try nearly every ligature in existence, including the Silverstein Ft. Knox bullion specials. That's really the only way to wade through the stuff if you're not sure whether something is worth the price.
Hey Dave, not trying to aggravate anyone or anything, but I sort of like Valentino pads, too. I mean, they solve problems I've actually had. Seem to work great. Sorry!
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Author: RLarm
Date: 2017-07-31 05:31
Again my point on the subject is not on the product itself (I love the Silverstein Cryo) but the fact that multiple manufacturers and individuals are flooding the market with too many products. I only think Yamaha is doing it right. They have slowly introduced different models that are family friendly in terms of price and they play great right out of the box. I love Bob Bernado's comment to me: buy a set of CSVRs (I have), come over to his place and have a great bottle of wine, buy a round trip 1st class ticket to Paris, and when I return to the states I could still buy a top of the line bed and box spring mattress.) He didn't use that last example but you get his point.) So if any of you want to buy a set of MINT condition Toscas I'll sell them to you WAY below their minimum price next year. I would do it right now except for my tax implications. The set is so expensive! Oh I almost forgot that I will have Tomoji Hirakata do very minor things to the set of CSVRs because I still will have extra funds by not buying another set of Toscas. Tomoji, the late Jimmy Yan and Kristin Bertrand can do great things to the Toscas and probably transform them but by then I will have spent well north of $20,000.
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2017-07-31 06:59
If you think the ligature market is flooded, wait until you shop for that cabernet to take over to Bob's place.
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2017-07-31 07:05
"Multiple manufacturers and individuals are flooding the market with too many products."
Lets assume this true. If it is, fingers best be pointed at the irrational clarinet gear consumer who fuels these business flooding decisions when they, often motivated by desperation to achieve marginal improvements to play, resort--from this desperation--to the somewhat irrational purchase decisions that fuel the existence of these markets.
Look at this picture http://tinyurl.com/ybl27vqt. We've been reinventing ways to get the butt of a reed to stay in one place long before, and likely long after Silverstein has thrown its wares into the space.
To my way of thinking, nobody should upgrade a working ligature under the belief that it will give them better sound until monies have been spent on nearly EVERY known etude book of our craft, and played to death at 120bps.
Etude work will make your play better. It's cheaper than an expensive lig, which maybe, might make you play just a tad better.
Where do you think money is better spent?
Post Edited (2017-07-31 07:07)
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Author: donald
Date: 2017-07-31 11:06
I always thought that Backun would come out with a ligature...
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Author: RLarm
Date: 2017-07-31 12:49
Holy Moly. I went to the Silverstein website. Their statement ligature: the Maestro lists for $1,200. OMG!!! And the Estro is a very economical $280-$330. What is the clarinet world coming to? I remember talking to one of my best friends in the 1980's debating whether he should spend at that time the then unbelievable amount of $175 for a Dave Guardala Michael Brecker model tenor sax mouthpiece. And now $1,200 for a ligature? How many starving people in drought stricken parts of Africa would be fed with that $1,200? I honestly would feel far better as a person donating to feed the starving. But yes, there will still be people who will shell out the big bucks. I guess everything is relative. Who am I to tell you what to do with your money? I wonder if endorsers such as Wenzel Fuchs or Han Kim get them at a discount or even free? Wow, "$1,200 for a f******* ligature as a store owner friend would say.But if it's out there, people will come.WOW!!!
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-07-31 16:39
I think EVERYONE should buy the most expensive ligature they can find! I think the most expensive is $1300.
Then send me your old ones. I'll donate them to schools, because they are just fine! Also I know you may feel a slight difference so surely buy one! If it makes you feel better buy it. I'll stay with the one I modified that probably costs less the $3!
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2017-07-31 17:22
"I wonder if endorsers such as Wenzel Fuchs or Han Kim get them at a discount or even free"
I don't wonder if these gentlemen, at the very least, get them for free. I wonder if they're paid, suspect they are, and I would love to know how much.
This is not to imply they would endorse junk or things they don't also believe in and play. But it does imply that the product isn't so great that it would sell as well on its own without sponsorship and its associated costs to the manufacturer. And just so were not singling out ligatures or Silverstone, the same could be said of many high end products and instruments, be it Vandoren, Buffet, Selmer, Yamaha, Backun, etc.
(Bias disclaimer: I've given lots of my money to the first two.)
A great product sells on its own merits and doesn't need endorsers. Everyone who is someone in the clarinet space owns the ATG reed finishing system, endorsed by nobody.
(Bias: Tom Ridenour is not without the bias of pushing his own wares.)
By no means am I saying that Silverstone's ligs don't meet or exceed this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7TwVEI5r6A
But by no means am I saying that Weiner's entry model lig
http://shop.weinermusic.com/STANDARD-Bb-CLARINET-LIGATURE/productinfo/LK1N/
doesn't also pass this test.
Some will disagree, sighting, perhaps correctly, lack of proficiency on my part to appreciate the Silverstein differences. But perhaps also correctly demonstrating conformation bias.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2017-07-31 17:40
I'm a Silverstein artist and own the rose gold Maestro ligature. It wasn't free but it wasn't full price either. As fair as I know no one is paid but we do receive perks.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: RLarm
Date: 2017-08-01 00:10
John Yen said that as far as he knows, Yamaha is the only big name clarinet manufacturer who doesn't pay big name players to use their products. Every Yamaha that John has played was bought by John.And unlike Peter's statement he doesn't get a discount. Being an Asian American, Yamaha's policy fits Asian ideology. I was not paid by Yamaha to make this statement.
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Author: RLarm
Date: 2017-08-01 00:18
Touche' Bob.I don't drink Bob so what specific vintage do you want me to bring over which you hopefully don't down completely during my visit. But then you don't have to drive home!
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2017-08-01 02:29
Wow. I just found out that one doesn't "buy" a Maestro. Rather, more accurately stated, one applies for the right to purchase one. I'm not kidding. You can't make this stuff up.
https://www.silversteinworks.com/ligatures/a-frame-ligatures/amaestro/
With its slogan as "one in a million," I don't think I stand a chance being picked.
=====
Mr. Cigleris, you are a fine musician...better than I'll ever be. Sadly, your name recognition is not yet there with the likes of a Guiffredo or Franch-Ballester. I think even you could concur. This is no way speaks to your musicianship relative to these guys, just your celebrity: which the content of a man does not make.
You are in an artist program, just like Backun has, that offers you perks. And that's fine.
But that you're unaware of compensation by other "bigger fish" endorsing Silverstein I suspect is far more a product of the fact that Silverstein chooses not to share such information with others, and probably makes the top players sign confidentiality agreements, than the absence of such deals.
People: there is one reason why one applies for a Maestro. Profit.
Limiting supply provides a false sense of exclusivity, no differently than DeBeers owns most diamond mines and artificially raises their price, where greater profit is made selling less to higher bidders.
Secondly, they want to make sure that guys or institutions don't buy the thing, test it against more aforementioned $4 lig on acoustical equipment, and debunk its value.
Come on people: if diamond decoration, personalized engraving, Italian Leather Pouch, and (drum roll) membership card and bag tag aren't intended to appeal materialistic tendencies more than acoustical ones, then even I am speechless.
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Author: alanporter
Date: 2017-08-01 05:53
How much better than Walmart hose clamp is it ?
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Author: ClarinetRobt
Date: 2017-08-01 09:16
I don't know about a stainless steel worm gear clamp, but a couple of $.50 O-Rings make for a pretty darn good ligature out of my hardware store.
~Robt L Schwebel
Mthpc: Behn Vintage
Lig: Ishimori, Behn Delrin
Reed: Legere French Cut 3.75/4, Behn Brio 4
Horns: Uebel Superior (Bb,A), Ridenour Lyrique, Buffet R13 (Eb)
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Author: RLarm
Date: 2017-08-01 10:57
I think Michael Lowenstern should redo his killer YouTube ligature video but add in the Silverstein Maestro ligature. It would be perfect to watch at a movie theatre right before a new Borat movie drinking Bob Bernardo's cabernet I'm supposed to give him. In fact the ICA should reserve a theatre so the audience will be just clarinetists. I bet Michael's video will be at least or probably funnier than Borat!
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Author: TomS
Date: 2017-08-04 22:06
I vote for the "O" rings too ... free, open and bigger sound.
It's worth a dollar to find out for yourself ...
But, I normally use a Luyben for convenience and economy, and I like a 2-screw ligature ... works nicely with Reserve X0 and Pilgerstorfer Dolce reeds ...
I suspect the Silverstein may indeed have some interesting qualities ... when you have attempted playing the clarinet for over 53 years, you get very sensitive to small tweaks ... and I've heard good reports from fellow players on the Silversteins ...
Tom
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Author: Wes
Date: 2017-08-04 23:39
Recently, I bought a new inverted Bonade ligature for about $20. It sounds great, even a bit better than my old Bonade which was a bit bent up.
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2017-08-04 23:41
"I think Michael Lowenstern should redo his killer YouTube ligature video but add in the Silverstein Maestro ligature."
I'll bet the contract involved in owning one precludes this. I'll be the contract involved in owning one precludes discussion that it precludes this.
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Author: RLarm
Date: 2017-08-05 12:28
WhitePlainsDave that is a loss for the clarinet world to not be able to see the video I proposed. But I understand the legalities and if it was made there would be one huge, huge loser:SILVERSTEIN LIGATURES. Michael would demonstrate the pure insanity that has become the norm not just in the clarinet world. A truly sad commentary indeed. And I wouldn't be so harsh on Peter Cigleris. It's not his fault. People do what they have to do. Companies do what they have to do. All that matters is the bottom line. Francois Kloc thanked me for sending him birthday wishes from Hawaii and said that I would fall I love with the Legende. This is entirely Francois speaking, not me. Now maybe if I could get it at a special discount.........Players do what they have to do.
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2017-08-05 23:04
"Michael would demonstrate the pure insanity that has become the norm not just in the clarinet world."
No, to the very point I seek to make he wouldn't. Because for as much as I like him, his videos, his talent, and his ability at--in addition to taking the time to explain things, Mr. Lowenstern has chosen from what I understand to now play a Vandoren ligature, citing, in a video I can't find, how his tendency to "drop ligatures and step on them," swayed him in this Vandoren direction, despite the seeming oddness of suffering from this rare affinity that might best be addressed by stocking up on some of the very creative and inexpensive "ligatures" he highlights in the video you reference.
Something tells me that as long as he wears the Vandoren shirt, a "ligatures part II" video won't be in the works.
And all of this is utterly his right.
(Funny, the 2 times a year I drop my ligature I tend to look where I'm stepping first. Translation: I respect artist's decision to enter into compensation agreements, but I thought his rationale for choosing a Vandoren lig was weak, and I equally respect my decision to, if not embarrass him, send a message/inform those that might say, "gee, there's got to be something musical to Mike's rationale to playing a big "V" lig after dissing and playing on the others, that I can 'cash in on'," that there probably isn't.
(Disclaimer: I think Vandoren/Silverstein ligatures are excellent. So in my opinion are some $4 ones. I play a Vandoren ligature for utility reasons, not my belief they enhance performance: the double threaded screw makes fast work of switching reeds.)
"And I wouldn't be so harsh on Peter Cigleris. It's not his fault. People do what they have to do."
Peter is by all benefits of a doubt a great guy, great musician, great bboard contributor, and just trying to make a living at music (my spin on your "people do what they have to do.")
At the end of the day, and I know this is the hard pill few want to swallow in a bboard of people doing their best to make a living performing, (and who I support with my time and checkbook) we all choose (yes, within limits) our profession.
Sure, it's not as if every player has the mindset to instead become an astrophysicist, (or vice versa), or wants to. But, to quote the classic case of choice versus sympathy in law, "should we show mercy for the child who, understanding of his/her actions, kills his/her parents, as he/she is now an orphan?"
That Pete can legally secure product at better price and chooses to do so: more power to him.
But Pete's comment struck a chord with me because to claim lack of knowledge of other more lucrative endorsements than his own is a statement that runs risk of connoting misplaced honesty on a vendor, if it doesn't also state whether he inquired as to whether such arrangements exist and/or if he was told that such arrangements expressly don't exist. To imply that, say, Sabine Meyer, or Carrado Guiffredi earn no greater favor from Silverstein than he does, merely in the absence of evidence of same, is at best naïve.
(Think about this people. Like it or not, if these artists thought the gear worth the market price why would any vendor offer it to them for less, free, or with compensation....because the firm's in business to lose money?....because the artists aren't looking to cash in on their celebrity?)
Which in turn leads some to readers to ask, 'gee, maybe if Meyer and Guiffredi only get such products at discount, maybe they're really on to something I can latch on to.'
To which I feel the need to say, "no. These artists may believe in this product, even play marginally better with it, but please recognize that they may have other motives, may play marginally better with OTHER products, and that you are not only not them because you play their gear, but more likely to become them if you rather stick your nose in a cheaper etude book."
And when nameless other posters seek to debunk gear dissing with their own opinions that's fine. When they imply that a ligature, quoted at a price much more than they likely paid, participated (in fairness, along with other gear) in making their experience a hell of a lot easier, I get skeptical, feel its fair game to debunk their debunking, and get concerned that consumers, much as they should feel absolutely free to make the legal purchases they deem fit, risk regret, smaller pockets, and incentivize suppliers to produce product less likely to live up to claims.
True, virutally all artists wouldn't endorse junk, but they might endorse one of a competing series of similarly rated products if one offers a more cushy deal.
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Author: alanporter
Date: 2017-08-06 04:30
My only thought is.... the metal part of the ligature is said to be gold. Isn't gold a soft metal ? won't the screw part wear very quickly ? How will you tighten the ligature then ? Oh, I know, you will buy another one !
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2017-08-07 02:15
I don't have much I want to contribute to the broader conversation here, but I could not let this one statement go unchallenged from WhitePlainsDave:
"Everyone who is someone in the clarinet space owns the ATG reed finishing system, endorsed by nobody."
This is just so absurd and unverifiable. Without getting into a discussion about whether or not the ATG system is good or worthwhile, let me just say that this is not true. Your statement is broad and lacking in evidence.
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2017-08-07 02:21
I've had conversations with Ted Ridenour about this. I can't say that everyone uses it, nor can (or will) I name names, but orders for this product, endorsed by nobody I might add, (because it doesn't NEED to be) read like a who's who of the clarinet world.
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Author: ClarinetRobt
Date: 2017-08-07 02:49
Absolutely WPD concerning the ATG.
And I'll add without my controversy, Tom's success with the ATG has helped move his clarinets. Almost like complementary products - peanut butter and jelly.
~Robt L Schwebel
Mthpc: Behn Vintage
Lig: Ishimori, Behn Delrin
Reed: Legere French Cut 3.75/4, Behn Brio 4
Horns: Uebel Superior (Bb,A), Ridenour Lyrique, Buffet R13 (Eb)
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2017-08-08 02:30
WhitePlainsDave,
By all means try and blow smoke up my arse with your, what seem like backhanded complements. Frankly whether I know or don't know about deals with other players is none of my business and really shouldn't be any of your business. Unless of course you're seething with upmost jealously that they have deals and you don't.
At the end of the day no one really cares other than those keyboard warriors that couldn't do the job to get the deal in the first place.
The players you mention are great players and I hold them in high esteem but I think I would be right in saying they don't care about celebrity as you put it. I don't either. I care about presenting the music and composer in the best possible way and to the best of my ability. If having a Silverstein enables me to do that then great. Why should you care? The fact that you do, judging by what you write, says a lot but by all means prove me wrong and others.
That's all I have to say and will not comment further on this thread.
Best wishes and happy music making.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: bsnake1956
Date: 2017-08-08 03:42
This is the first time I have responded to this bboard. Generally I prefer to read other contributors comments which over the last 6 months, I have found both entertaining and educational. However, I could not let this thread pass without a comment. I am flabbergasted that anyone would pay $200 for a ligature let alone $1200.00. I recently bought a silver keyed Bliss/Leblanc clarinet as a second practice horn and I payed $1300.00 Canadian (about $900.00 U.S.). I am still trying to wrap my head around someone paying more for a ligature than an instrument. I recently replaced my 30 year old Rovner light ligature for what I thought was an outrageous $45.00 Canadian. I agree with RLarm. While anyone can spend their hard earned money as they please, when you are willing to part with that kind of cash for a ligature, priorities need to be reexamined.
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2017-08-08 06:22
Well, OK. This is maybe the third or fourth thread where people have delighted in trashing Silverstein because their stuff's expensive and their hype is over the top. It's obviously a lot of fun and furnishes a chance for a full turn at the pulpit to preach on the moral corruption of those tainted miscreants who brazenly spend more than 50 bucks for a ligature. But look, the thread started out with a fellow clarinetist asking a perfectly legitimate question, and nobody else even tried to help the person out. When we get to priorities, maybe the balance is getting a little off here. What's the message if someone asks something and people respond like a rugby scrum when the ball's tossed in the middle?
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