 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: jrain54
Date: 2017-07-15 12:24
Hi all,
just interested in discussing why and how it is that in a pack of reeds there are so many terrible ones?
I use Vandorens which are meant to be fairly prestigious, but this does not excuse them from ranging between great and terrible.
Feedback?
Jess
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Author: jthole
Date: 2017-07-15 14:35
Opinions on Vandoren reeds are very different. There are different brands to try (including synthetic reeds), and different reeds also work better with different mouthpieces.
I must say that, on a closed mouthpiece (Vandoren M15), the Vandoren Traditional reeds work fine for me. But they frequently need some slight adjustments indeed.
I haven't tried Steuer and Gonzales reeds, but opinions seem to be favourable on those brands. But personally I have not tried a d'Addario or Alexander reed that I really liked better than Vandoren Traditional reeds,
Post Edited (2017-07-15 14:38)
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Author: Ed
Date: 2017-07-15 16:56
Learning to adjust the reeds will go a long way to getting more out of a box to work. Being a natural product there will always be variety or inconsistency. If I go to the grocery store and buy 10 apples there is quite a bit of variation as well.
Sometimes you can find a different cut or different brand may give you more success.
Post Edited (2017-07-19 23:07)
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Author: ClarinetRobt
Date: 2017-07-15 17:20
Jess, pull out your credit card and buy Ridenour's ATG reed balancing system. It's not gimmicky and works beautifully. The upfront cost is high, but you'll get many more great reeds per box. (I'm implying it'll pay for itself...not to mention it'll the remove a lot of frustration).
FYI, I've had some great results with Brad Behn's new a Aria reeds. There are several threads talking about them in in the past few months. Check it out.
Also Legere Euro Signature, great reeds, have been written about ad nauseam.
~Robt L Schwebel
Mthpc: Behn Vintage
Lig: Ishimori, Behn Delrin
Reed: Legere French Cut 3.75/4, Behn Brio 4
Horns: Uebel Superior (Bb,A), Ridenour Lyrique, Buffet R13 (Eb)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2017-07-15 17:23
There are only two things a reed manufacturer can control to any degree.
They can control the cut - the dimensions and the way the reed tapers in all directions from its center core. This can be done, I assume, far more consistently with modern computer-controlled cutters than was the case 40 or 50 years ago.
They can to a limited extent control the overall quality of the cane they start with. There are other influences - soil, weather and volume demand. I don't know how much Vandoren grows on its own fields in the Var region these days. Every high end reed manufacturer claims to grow its own cane in carefully controlled conditions, but I think more and more they're forced to buy their cane from independent growers who may not make a quality growing environment a first priority. And no one can control the weather - we can't even predict it reliably.
The vibrating characteristics of a reed depend on both the way the reed is cut and the qualities of the cane itself. Cane is too variable to guarantee a consistent product even with the best of designs and most accurate of machines. And then mouthpieces vary, sometimes sharply and sometimes subtly, so that a given reed may play very differently on two similarly designed mouthpieces or even two examples of the same mouthpiece model.
So, as a player, you're left with two alternatives - play the ones that you like on your equipment and trash the rest, or learn to adjust the less immediately playable ones to compensate for the natural variation among individual pieces of cane.
Karl
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2017-07-15 19:59
This may be my favorite post ever.
Every respondent has covered different attributes that explain reed variability that the post almost seems choreographed--although of course it's not. I think I can in large part only add color commentary.
First, as Johan claims, I too subscribe to the notion that not only are some mouthpieces much more reed friendly that others, but Vandoren's M15, IMHO, is right up there with one of the most reed accepting of mouthpieces. As he points out, I'd also try some other reed brands that posters here have claimed give Vandoren (even though much of my reed money goes to them) a run for their money.
Steuer reeds and Aria reeds draw significant praise as do Leuthners and Pilgerstorfers too.
Steuers and Arias are exclusively sold by these two shops exclusively. They're price competitive, and Bob Bernardo (Steuer's US sales contact, nice guy, and board member), as well as Brad Behn (Aria sales contact, nice guy, and board member) both earn high praise. They both, IMHO, run their monopsonies on product as if they had to compete in a highly competitive market, with customer focus being key.
Brad sells the Leuthners and Pilgerstorfers too, as he does Legeres (discussed below), but not exclusively.
https://steuerwoodwindreeds.com/
https://www.clarinetmouthpiece.com/reeds-clarinet
"Why and how it is that in a pack of reeds there are so many terrible ones?"
Jessica--there's several ways of answering this. As Karl mentioned, one fact is that no two organisms are the same. Environment and genes makes all things different, including the same stalk of arundo donax ("reed cane"). Life provides a smorgasbord of variety for nature to select the most fit to reproduce, not to mention that cane can widely vary in quality as reed material.
I assure you that Vandoren claims to cut its reeds to within a human hair's thickness difference, and source only the best cane stock (all as some claim reed stock isn't as good lately.) from a special region in France where cane has been found to grow best.
(Gonzales reeds are the praise of some and are sourced from Latin American grown cane.)
Sure V21's are cut different from Traditionals and Rue Lepics, and V12's in addition to having their own cut, are sourced from larger cane. But mother nature puts variability into the mix such that 2 ostensibly identically cut reeds play different. Wood fibers can, for example, be bulkier in the same spot on different reeds, even though they're cut pretty much identically.
Did you know that all reeds of a brand, irrespective of strength are cut the same? Vandoren tests each reed with a puff test: a known strength of air at fixed distance from the reed hits it to measure how much it deflects and then boxes the reeds such that those that deflect the least are the strongest.
The test is highly inaccurate, not that I know of ways to much improve upon it, let alone ones that wouldn't make reeds 10X more expensive (have players who understand strengths play them: read--also inaccurate and very time=$ expensive, maybe microscopes.)
Next, we deal with perception. What you think is a good reed others may disagree on, due to personal taste and mouthpiece differences. Also, with improvements to play, you may become more tolerant of some reeds you've previously discarded. And above all, no reed is perfect.
Next, and most important, abandon any notion that, at least Pro reeds, apart from synthetics discussed below, are "plug and play." Ricos might be, but the sound and duration of play are IMHO limited.
Pro reeds are like that toy model of a car you have to assemble. Rarely is there a reed that I am not adjusting. As mentioned, the ATG product is one of the best accessories out there. Its maker, Tom Ridenour (who sells it directly and through distributors) uses Klingspor no load wet/dry sandpaper. I use etched glass and an industrial diamond surface because there's less to throw out, but the ideas are the same as I incorporate ATG-like ideas, if not Tom's special tool that comes as part of the kit.
http://www.ridenourclarinetproducts.com/accessories.html
http://www.vandoren-en.com/Reed-resurfacer_a101.html
https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/DMT-Diamond-Card-Sized-Sharpener-P19.aspx?gclid=CLGho9XOi9UCFRJYDQodRMQO3Q
http://www.reedgeek.com/
http://shop.weinermusic.com/All-knives/products/1720/
(All but the latter are on board plane ride friendly.)
At might add, reed adjustment is an ongoing process. I use it to make reeds playable, and keep them that way from one play session to the next.
Although most of us aren't ready to hang up on cane yet, synthetic reeds, IMHO, have advanced significantly in the last decade as evidenced by Legere's Euro[pean cut] reed product.
http://www.legere.com/clarinet-reeds
They're not perfect, as many posts on the board will discuss, but compared to synthetics of 20 years ago...wow.
==
Post script thought: never minimize the important that reed placement on the mouthpiece can make. While the ideally balanced reed on either side, properly matched for strength has its tip at the same level is the tip of the mouthpiece, many a times I will make the reed higher to compensate for softness, or vice versa (hairline amounts.) Quite commonly I sit my reeds slightly to the left under the belief (perception, not measured) that my mouthpiece rails are off, and the right side of the reed plays stronger--making this adjustment to compensate for that.
Post Edited (2017-07-15 22:53)
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Author: zhangray4
Date: 2017-07-16 00:19
For my entire life I had been playing on Vandoren reeds, particularly V12. But this spring, I switched to Steuer exclusive reeds, and I have been liking it a lot. About 70-80% of the reeds you get are actually good. They last much longer than Vandorens too.
-- Ray Zhang
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2017-07-19 21:22
The Steur Exclusive 3.5 reeds are superb and very consitent...for Vandoren the Rue Lepic 3.5 or 3.75 are also very fine as well. I think the Vandoren V12 and Blue Box are widely inconsistent with the current Blue Box better. The V21 are not at all consistent as the rails are quite uneven.
David Dow
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2017-07-19 21:23
Grab a ReedGeek to adjust your reeds if you find you are wasting money
David Dow
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Author: kdk
Date: 2017-07-19 22:24
D Dow wrote:
> ...for Vandoren the Rue Lepic 3.5 or 3.75 are also
> very fine as well. I think the Vandoren V12 and Blue Box are
> widely inconsistent with the current Blue Box better. The V21
> are not at all consistent as the rails are quite uneven.
>
Why would V.12 and V21 be any less consistent than 56 Rue lepic? Could the 56 Rue design just work better than the other two with the particular mouthpiece you're using as a criterion?
Karl
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2017-07-20 04:34
For me, the ultimate head-scratcher in terms of reed consistency are the Olivieri reeds. They vary wildly in thickness and width from the shoulder back to the heel, yet I've gotten consistently good results from them, never once encountering a total dud. Go figure...
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Author: TomS
Date: 2017-07-20 06:31
Consistency in strength is one thing while consistency in quality is quite another. When we buy a box of #3 Blue Box, since Vandoren does not have 1000 different gradings of strength (can't buy a 3 29/1000 strength, for example), so we should expect the strength to vary from 2.75 to 3.25, and without overlapping to the adjacent strengths of 2.5 and 3.5. That's just being practical ... and I know the grading technique has weaknesses too ...
However, when the quality varies due to the quality of the cane and/or the consistency of the cutting, that is where Vandoren (and others) needs more control.
I have found the Pilgerstorger Dolce to have strength variations out of the box, as you would expect, but the balance and play-ability is outstanding. Out of a box of 10, I might only have to balance one reed. Most amazing is that some of the blanks are crooked and all wonky, but the reed still plays great. So, I wonder how they do it?
The real test of a reed is how much it changes during and after the break-in period ... that's when you separate the men reeds from the boy reeds ...
For people that want to utilize all good balanced reeds in a box, I suggest delegating softer reeds to a MP that is a little stuffy and harder ones to a MP that is more free blowing ... I carry two M13-lyres, play very much alike except for resistance, one I use for the softer reeds and one for harder reeds ... I think it's a mistake to depend on one good MP or spend time adjusting reeds to fit one MP, when possibly you just need to swap MPs to fit the reed ...
It's all fun ... as I get older, I've leaned to relax and enjoy the quirks of our craft ...
Tom
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Author: Musikat
Date: 2017-07-20 07:16
I recently switched from V12s to the new Aria reeds and their consistency and ease of playing is amazing to me (out of a box of 10, 8 were usable and all very similar in quality, and they feel like a softer reed in response, but hold up on the high notes!). I also tried them for my 10 year old son and he sounded better than on Vandoren blue box 2s (out of 5, 3 were good and 2 were probably just too hard, since Arias start at strength 3). Then I sent some to my 90 year old dad who started playing again a few years ago after many years away and was complaining to me about having trouble with his Vandoren reeds. He called me yesterday to tell me how great he found them. He tried two different strengths out of the box and both worked well for him. I wonder what they are doing to make them so consistent, that Vandoren and others don't?
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2017-07-24 01:08
The point I was drawing to is the lepics are more accurately machined than the other offerings...this may have something to do with the style of cutting required for a reed with this type of shape. They remind of olivieri reeds when they came out..just easy to play and work on. Having tried all of Vandorens reeds with variour facings..closed..open short long etc...this is what I think. As to micrometers I could do some measurements....but this would be more in looking at the heart of all of these makes of reeds. Also some times it is good to have some reeds that are a bit hard and reeds that are a bit soft..if a reed is imbalanced then the player should be able to fix it quickly with a knife and bit of sand paper
David Dow
Post Edited (2017-07-24 01:10)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2017-07-24 02:08
D Dow wrote:
> The point I was drawing to is the lepics are more accurately
> machined than the other offerings...
But what are you seeing to be able to say this?
> this may have something to
> do with the style of cutting required for a reed with this type
> of shape.
What style of cutting is applied to the Rue lepics that's different from the other Vandoren products (including the thinner-blank Traditionals)? This takes me back to my question in another thread about scanners that could map the entire contour of a reed and, using computer algorithms, compare the shapes of competing reeds.
I'm not challenging what you've said. There has to be, I would think, a difference between the ways 56 Rues and V.12s, for examples, are cut.
I *am* curious about what you mean by saying that a different style of cutting is "required for a reed with this type of shape." What type of shape, in specific terms?
Karl
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