 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2017-07-13 23:00
I know, from what I've read here, that I'm not alone in facing pitch problems using these reeds. I tend to play flat, particularly in the upper altissimo, despite trying different mouthpieces, when playing Legere Euros.
I don't have these same problems with cane.
Sure, snugging the mouthpieces more and a stronger embouchure help, but not enough.
Has anyone had such problems and overcome them? Is so, I would be interested in hearing how you did it.
Did it, for example, involve "biting the bullet," er mouthpiece, and assuming higher strength reeds of this product?
In the meantime, they make great practice reeds, even if my dog and family might disagree.
Thanks.
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2017-07-13 23:44
An xanswer and a comment..
M15 and 3.
I think I'm finding more intonation consistency (it may just be a "fool's paradise"--my findings are highly anecdotal with a sample size of 1) by passing the tip of he mouthpiece with the reed by a hair or to.
It feels like what I'd imagine a Euro 3.25 might feel like.
I wonder if others could try this and report their findings.
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Author: echi85
Date: 2017-07-14 00:05
Everyone plays differently but there have to be some reasonable guidelines for a balanced setup. My opinion is that your reeds are far too soft. Vandoren themselves recommend anywhere between 3.5-5 strength reeds for an M15. If you are playing a series 13, that would compound the flatness even more. Too little resistance will affect pitch in every register but particularly the altissimo.
I play a custom M15 style mouthpiece using 4 or 4.25 euro signature reeds. I can't even get a sound out if I put on a 3 because of how little resistance there is. My advice would be the try a 3.75 to see if it's too heavy. A 3 reed will match a very open mouthpiece like a B40/B45. If you have one, you can try it on that mouthpiece to see if it feels right.
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Author: ClarinetRobt
Date: 2017-07-14 00:14
My gut (notorious for being unreliable) thinks a 3 would a touch soft for an M15 - not considering the 29.63 other important variables.
![[A6]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/a6.gif) maxes out my Euro Signatures. But I haven't noticed any tuning problems other than normal Buffet and Ridenour clarinety intonation problems in the altissimo. Anything above high A, I'd have get a cane reed. It just doesn't come up very often in my world.
~Robt L Schwebel
Mthpc: Behn Vintage
Lig: Ishimori, Behn Delrin
Reed: Legere French Cut 3.75/4, Behn Brio 4
Horns: Uebel Superior (Bb,A), Ridenour Lyrique, Buffet R13 (Eb)
Post Edited (2017-07-14 00:53)
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Author: Justin Willsey ★2017
Date: 2017-07-14 01:19
I agree with echi85. For me, a low-resistance model such as the M15 pairs well with the 3.75-4.25 range. I find that the reeds play a tiny bit lower than cane in all registers. I suspect this is because of their symmetry, lack of high spots and warping, etc.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2017-07-14 04:32
Justin Willsey wrote:
> I find that the reeds
> play a tiny bit lower than cane in all registers.
This is my experience, too, but coincidentally my mouthpieces (custom-faced Chris Hills) tend to play a little sharp, so I just don't have to pull out as much. I've always suspected the very flexible tip as the reason, but it's hard to decide what effect that has on the response because the material is so physically different from cane. I use two almost identical mouthpieces, one with a 1.01 mm tip and the other a 1.03 mm, both with 17 mm curve lengths. It's hard to believe, because 2/100 of a millimeter shouldn't make a noticeable difference, but my altissimo notes are perfectly in tune on the 1.03 with cane and flat with the 3.75 Légères I've been using. They are in tune on the 1.01.
So my tentative and very anecdotally-based conclusion is that very close tip openings may produce better altissimo pitch. But I've read here, I think, of players using Vandoren B series mouthpieces with Légère Euros quite happily.
Apart from having the 1.01 mm mouthpiece made for me, I do find that the pitch and quality I get above D6 have improved in the year I've been using the Euros. I can't tell you exactly what I've changed to accommodate them, but it isn't biting or pinching on the reed. I think my oral shape has changed a little - tongue may be a little higher. But when I go back to cane (for occasional reference), I don't notice any problem as a result of whatever I've done.
I do think there's a learning curve, hence time, involved, and I don't know that the adjustments need to be completely conscious, any more than adjusting from one cane reed to another needs to be.
FWIW, I would agree with others that a #3 Euro on an M15 is probably a little too soft.
Karl
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Author: ClarinetRobt
Date: 2017-07-14 05:19
Karl...
I'm completely with you. I'm curious (and the rest of the Euro users) if y'all notice something. I feel, after getting use to playing on the new Legere model, I have to be more pure (textbook) with my approach to embouchure, et al.
The 'X' factor of fighting with cane (maybe it's not perfectly balanced or it's being influenced by the environment), I was involuntarily making adjustments to my embouchure, tongue position, air support, etc to get the quality I desired. Tone, clarity, response, and intonation was always in constant flux of physical changes from me to play. Obviously I wasn't consciously changing anything, but I am suspicious I was making the adjustments nonetheless.
After the learning curve and feeling 'the feel' of the Euro Signatures, I have to do exactly what I'm suppose to be doing. No cheating or extraneous manipulation required. For me, it seems to be a position side effect.
I'm almost (uncomfortably) implying Legere Euro Signature reeds have made me a better player. That's a leap I'm not quite ready to make. But it's a nice sentiment.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2017-07-14 05:31
ClarinetRobt wrote:
> The 'X' factor of fighting with cane (maybe it's not perfectly
> balanced or it's being influenced by the environment), I was
> involuntarily making adjustments to my embouchure, tongue
> position, air support, etc to get the quality I desired.
>
> After the learning curve and feeling 'the feel' of the Euro
> Signatures, I have to do exactly what I'm suppose to be doing.
> No cheating or extraneous manipulation required.
I hadn't thought of it in that direction, but, yes, the Euros play with no (or a lot less) deliberate fussing, which is liberating in comparison with a bad or even marginal cane reed. I still enjoy playing on a good cane reed, but what's good today is often marginal or worse tomorrow and the insecurity of dealing with those day-to-day changes is something I don't miss in the least.
Karl
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Author: Wicked Good ★2017
Date: 2017-07-14 05:36
I experienced the same general flatness using Euro Signatures #4 with my M15 (13 series), and my throat tones were terribly, abnormally flat. Switching to a standard (non-13 series) 2RV solved both issues. The 2RV was new old stock from Weiner Music.
The 2RV doesn't work well *for me* with cane reeds, but comes alive with the Euro Signatures for some reason. Conversely, the M15 (13) works great with cane. To each his or her own.
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Post Edited (2017-07-14 05:44)
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Author: echi85
Date: 2017-07-14 06:04
I've been playing on the Euro cut reeds for a solid year now. I echo what other posters have said about needing to adjust to them, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. I find these reeds really don't work well for people who use a lot of embouchure pressure to create sound.
It took me about a week to get used to them. I perceive the change as a combination of a lot less jaw pressure, a more open oral cavity, and a more precise voicing/tongue position. I find my endurance is significantly greater because of these adaptations and also due to the fact that I don't have to fight the reed to get it to do what I want it to do. I find I can play a whole weekend of doubles without any uncomfortable fatigue.
Mouthpiece-wise, I tend to favor closer facings. My primary setup is with a higher pitched mouthpiece so I don't have any problems getting them up to 440. In fact, I have to use a 67mm barrel on Bb and 66mm on A. I have used them in orchestra with B series and M series mouthpieces as well, but they tend to ride a little low particularly first line E and F. I have had no issues with the altisimmo, up to double C as others have had.
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Author: gwie
Date: 2017-07-14 11:44
I've been playing the Euro cut for eight months now, and experience the same thing. They are just tiniest bit flatter pitch-wise than their cane equivalents. Since I have another barrel at 65mm, I just use that (pulling out ever-so-slightly) instead of the standard 66mm and everything works fine.
I'm playing on a Behn Epic HCV with a very close facing...
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Author: jthole
Date: 2017-07-14 11:51
I have tried the Euro Legeres for a few months, last year. I found out that they (for me) only work well with certain mouthpieces, and indeed, they play slightly flat.
At the moment, I am back to cane reeds (Vandoren Traditional).
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Author: shmuelyosef
Date: 2017-07-16 10:26
The facing length ( or 'lay')on a mouthpiece is just as important as the tip opening, and affects the pitch much more. Longer facing length generally plays flatter and this is amplified by some reed cuts. Longer vamps are more sensitivie to the lay, and the Euro is very much this type.
The M15 is identified as an "L for long" facing length in Vandoren's chart:
http://www.vandoren-en.com/file/162130/
An M13 or a 5RV would give you some comparison with similar tip openings for a M or ML lay.
A longer lay also generally can tolerate a harder reed, but it's not as sensitive a parameter as the tip opening for reed hardness.
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2017-07-16 20:39
I saw a promo on YouTube where Ricardo Morales, in his plug for Legere, which he claims to use exclusively, choses, on occasion, soprano saxophone cuts for his clarinet.
I'm not imply that he does so for intonation reasons--although maybe--he finds this choice a better match under certain conditions.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2017-07-16 22:19
Doesn't he say he uses the soprano sax reeds for recital work? It's been awhile since I last listened to the video.
As I understand it, the current Euro style Signature clarinet reeds evolved from Legere's soprano sax reeds. Coincidentally, I have a couple of soprano Legere reeds on order due to arrive in a couple of days. I have a soprano sax that I play occasionally, so they won't be a total waste if I don't like them on clarinet.
Karl
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Author: TomS
Date: 2017-07-17 03:39
The low pitch of the Legere reeds, especially in the high register, is mainly why I finally abandoned their use, keeping in mind, I am almost 65 (losing some of my MOJO) and I like an easy reed. I've been dancing around a 1st clarinet part in the stratosphere recently, and I have to have something that the high E, F and especially F# are not so flat and can be finessed up to pitch.
I don't think a molded or machined amorphous material like plastic can have the same characteristics as real cane.
Try the Pilgerstorfer Dolce reeds for a treat ... IMHO.
Tom
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2017-07-17 04:35
TomS wrote:
> I don't think a molded or machined amorphous material like
> plastic can have the same characteristics as real cane.
>
But it can very nearly mimic those characteristics and any remaining differences can be minimized. Even at the current state of the art, the result can be very close. Your experience contrasted with that of several of us here shows mostly, I think, that the relationship between reed and mouthpiece is more critical than it is with cane.
Karl
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2017-07-17 05:05
You may be right TomS.
The issue for me though is whether synthetics can come close enough to cane that their limitations are so small compared to cane and overshadowed by their pluses: like the ability to play like wet cane from note 1, and their reliability despite weather.
For example, if the sole difference was that I have to swap a Legere every hour (which I and the manufacturer suggest) that, for me, would be a small price to pay.
I think Legere has come so far, and is so close, that one or two product cycle improvements from now, I may be hooked on synthetics.
I do though concur with your positive opinion on Pilgerstorfer Dolce reeds. They're price competitive with Vandoren, and even if a tad pricer, its not about how much a box of reeds costs so much as it's about what price do you buy a box at where "X" number of reeds are playable versus those that may need to be discarded.
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Author: TomS
Date: 2017-07-17 07:59
Of course, I occasionally retry equipment that I've sat aside ... it may be that the right MP and model/strength Legere may do the trick ... an open mind (as long as it is not so open that your brain falls out ...) with fresh evaluations sometimes yield surprising and improved results.
My pitch issues with the Legere may be my MP or just they way I play, especially using a fairly light reed ... maybe 1/2 strength softer than most players would use ... If they work for you, I can't argue with success!
The Pilgerstorfer Dolce have awesome consistency of balance, but no quite as much consistency of strength ... I wish they were available in 1/4 strengths ... After the break-in period, then strengths actually diverge even more ... but with a couple of MPs of slightly different resistance, you can play them all. I keep two VD M13-lyres in my case, each with a little different playing characteristics, and use them accordingly on which reeds work the best.
Tom
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Author: ClarinetRobt
Date: 2017-07-17 21:39
Just to throw in my two cents, since I've played on Pilgerstorfer Dolces too. They are great reeds, but switched to Leuthner because I thought they had more 'umph'. (Thank me later for my 'high' science evaluation). But I've recently switched to Aria (Brad Behn). They too are very consistent and ready to play out of the box...with lots 'o umph. There's been a couple of threads on the Bboard talking about his new product.
~Robt L Schwebel
Mthpc: Behn Vintage
Lig: Ishimori, Behn Delrin
Reed: Legere French Cut 3.75/4, Behn Brio 4
Horns: Uebel Superior (Bb,A), Ridenour Lyrique, Buffet R13 (Eb)
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2017-07-18 21:39
Robert: I too, opening my horizons beyond the Vandoren product offerings, have recently ordered Pilgerstorfer Dolces, Leuthners, Arias and Steuers--in addition to the Legere Euros of this thread.
I tried Gonzales too a while back, just to dip my feet in non Var region grown cane--albeit with less (purely anecdotal) success for me, YMMV.
They are all so far (anecdotally at best) for me strong product offerings that I'd recommend, if for no other reason that to have choices beyond Vandoren.
This is not meant as a stab against Vandoren anymore than it is to have a bunch of restaurants you like, not visiting the same one every time you go out to eat.
I get a lot of Vandorens to play, which I attribute to a reed friendly mouthpiece and a willingness to physically adjust a reed to get it up to play, sometimes in multiple play sessions, as well as spend a minute on it before play effecting same.
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