 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: David Kinder
Date: 2001-06-04 02:54
I've been looking at ebay ads, and I came across a couple of ads from Matthew's Music. Has anyone bought from them? I found a leblanc Opus for sale for about $2300 and a Buffet R-13 Prestige for about $2195. I think they're good prices! Here's their link:
http://www.clarinets.nl
Also, are there any special considerations for buying a new instrument across the world? I'm in Southern California, and Matthew's Music is in the Netherlands!
Thanks for your help!
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Author: Sue B
Date: 2001-06-04 09:19
I paid about $1495.00 for my R-13 about 2 months ago at a local music store.
There are a lot of different models of an R-13 - nickel keys, silver keys, prestige, greenline, and vintage. Look on some instrument web sites to get an understanding of the different models.
Mine has nickel keys and this seems to be about the price I have seen for these but the others are more expensive. So buyer beware and know what you are buying.
__Sue
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Author: Bill
Date: 2001-06-04 10:18
David: If you are in the U.S. there is a customs import duty. There was a thread on this a couple of months ago, and I think the duty is about 3%.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-06-04 12:46
Yes, there is a customs duty , but no sales tax as you would pay locally. Shipping might be more (damage in transit is always a possibilitiy - some subscribe to the theory that the further something travels & the more hands it touches ... )
I would guess this would treated as "gray market". I think that Boosey & Hawkes has talked of voiding the manufacturer's warranty when an item is purchased outside of North America by a resident of North America. (lets not argue the B&H policy, it is what it is) No doubt, Leblanc has a similar policy.
Usually, if its (much) too good to be true .... you should _really_ check things out.
Best,
mw
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-06-04 15:45
I have a couple of friends who own large music stores with large buying power, and one of them pays $2,900.00 for the Opus and another with slightly less buying power pays $3,050.00. The cases are nicer than the ones Matthew's Music sells, and I suspect the instruments are more "first line" than his. But, I haven't bought from him so I can't say for certain. However, my friend (a very respected Leblanc dealer for over 50 years) tells me Leblanc sells a different quality of instrument in their European market. I would highly advise buying "stateside" from a reputable dealer. You can get a really great instrument that has the high-dollar leather covered case from International Musical Suppliers for $3,245.00 and have a period of time to play it before deciding to keep it. Also, Lisa has a repair dept. and is a pro clarinetist and has play-tested these before purchasing them for her customers. That way, if there is a need for adjustment or a problem with the instrument you don't have to send it back to the Netherlands.
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Author: Eric Satterlee
Date: 2001-06-05 12:05
There is absolutely no question that instruments purchsed out side of the US have no warranty from either LeBlanc or Buffet... this means that if your instrument experiences any cracking in the first year there is no warranty coverage! This fact alone should be enough to deter the inteligent buyer from purchasing abroad... that is unless you like to live dangerously... those of us involved in playing/repairing etc. know the percentage of instruments with warranty related problems... In order to be sure of what you are purchasing make sure that all of the warranty cards are inncluded intact with any new instrument and that they are in English....
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-06-05 14:55
According to the Buffet warranty card (I have one right in front of me), "all warranty claims must be handled exclusively through a currently authorized Boosey & Hawkes Musical Instruments, Inc. dealer. Instruments or instrument sections may not be returned by dealers without prior written authorization, and must include dated sales receipt." If the guy is not really an authorized dealer, you're stuck. If you have a problem, you have to ship the clarinet back to Australia or the Netherlands to get it fixed. This could turn out to be the most expensive mistake anyone ever made. To me, it's worth the extra to buy stateside from a reputable dealer.
In my opinion, there is too much emphasis on saving a buck and not enough attention given to instrument quality and service--these two things are highly important for a musician. I don't like to pay full retail, but if I get a good reasonable discount from a reputable dealer, I'm happy. I've bought more clarinets than I can count in my lifetime and believe me, you'll have warranty claims on some of them.
Leblanc is the same as Buffet. It has to be an authorized Leblanc dealer and you'll have to go through them for repairs.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-06-05 18:21
Here is an excerpt of a Post from Francois Kloc/Boosey & Hawkes to the Klarinet List in March, 2000 :
-----------------------------------
"From: "Kloc, Francois" <Francois.Kloc@boosey.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 08:22:04 -0600
charset="iso-8859-1"
Subject: [kl] A general note of CAUTION to the clarinet community from Francois
Kloc
Dear All,
I have been running through some problem with players lately concerning
Buffet clarinets warranty and would like to make a statment to you all. I want you to have the best support and product to fit your needs from us. This is a "heads up" regarding the sale of Buffet Crampon clarinets by North american retailers. There are several North American retailers who knowingly put their customers at the risk every time they sale a Buffet clarinet. It is very IMPORTANT that clarinetists purchase their Buffet clarinets or any Boosey & Hawkes instruments only from authorized B&H retailers. Many North American retailers obtain Buffet Crampon clarinets through non autorized and sometimes illegal methods. When
these non authorized retailers get and sell B&H instruments,these instruments are called "gray market" products and present sometimes problems to the sometimes unknowing musicians who buy them.
First,these clarinets have not been"Platinum Serviced" by myself or our technicians,which means that they have not been inspected for superb quality,adjustments and playability. In many cases we found "gray market" that were worked or adjusted by un authorized technicians who destroyed the instrument by reaming the bore and tone holes in a manner that is acoustically incorrect,again nobody have the proper reamers to work on the Buffet clarinet exept Buffet. We cannot be held responsible for the work somebody did wrong into our instruments. Plus the musician is left with an expensive instrument that is not playing properly anymore. Your only guarantee of the authentic Buffet Crampon quality standard is to buy is from authorized retailers who purchase them from Boosey & Hawkes in Libertyville,IL. Second buying a gray market instrument from an un authorized Boosey & Hawkes retailer negates the warranty for that instrument. It cannot be covered for any reason under our warranty program just because we do not know what happened or who work on this instrument before it is sold to you. You must obtain warranty service from the non authorized retailer who sold you the instrument and hope they will take care of you. Most of them don't and will send you to us,and you will get stock. Every
clarinets has a serial number and can be trace no matter what countries or individuals a clarinet was "laundered" through. When we determine a clarinet to be a gray market instrument,your only course of service or warranty is from the dealer you bough it from- not Boosey & Hawkes USA or Buffet Crampon France.
I think you have enough well known and respected authorized Boosey & Hawkes who do a great job and provide you with a fully warrentied,quality clarinet. How do you protect yourself and your clarinet from these less than forthright business practices?Ask questions and make the right decisions. Make sure your retailer is an authorized Boosey & Hawkes dealer. You can check our website or call Boosey & Hawkes at 847-837-2500 or contact me to locate the authorized dealer close to you. If a non authorized dealer offer you a Buffet clarinet.even if the
price seems to be to good to pass up, make your decision is a few dollars saved worth the financial and emotional insecurity of your purchase for a life time?
Anything of value has a price. Things that are sold at prices lower than you are accustomed to seeing usually lack that value. In this case you are forfeiting your right to the product support,quality and service that an authorized retailer will provide you with.
I would like to thank all of the loyal Buffet Crampon supporters in North America and hope that through communications like this, we can insure Buffet Crampon customers the best all around musical instrument experience and product support possible.
Sorry for this long post but I had to tell you this.
Musically yours,
FRANCOIS KLOC
Manager of Woodwinds North America
Boosey & Hawkes Musical Instruments, Inc."
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-06-05 19:09
wow! What a heads up warning. Listen up and you won't lose the money you've worked hard for to obtain a "bargain" in the clarinet market. Don't just look at the bottom line--look at the dealer, how long he/she has been in business, their track record on warranty claims, etc.
When you're spending thousands of dollars on an investment that your musical career is depending upon, why take a chance? Many dealers will "deal" with you if you come into their store with a reasonable comparison. For instance, I wanted to purchase a new Leblanc Symphonie VII. Woodwind and Brasswind quoted me $3550.00 and Lisa at INternational Musical Suppliers quoted me $3675.00. I went to see my friend who owns the local Leblanc dealership and showed him the quotes. He said, "Well, I don't have one so I'd have to order it, but the best I can do for you is $4,000.00---but I'd fix it for you beyond the warranty time and do lifetime adjustments for free if you buy it from me." I bought it from him and have been very glad I did because I needed several adjustments that would have been a pain outside of town. He was happy because he made a few hundred dollars and had an advertisement locally for upper level Leblancs.
Relationships with dealers is important for players. Begin to develop those and you won't regret it.
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Author: Eric Satterlee
Date: 2001-06-05 19:24
I agree with Francois and Brenda.... respectively... remember "The sweetness of a low price is long forgotten when the taste of a bad deal still lingers!" It is too bad that the state of marketing Buffet products in this country has basically come down to who sells for the cheapest price... Francois did not mention that Boosey & Hawkes is now doing alot of work to level the playing field so that all Buffet dealers can market instruments to their prospective customers at prices that are mutually benificial. The dog eat dog "We sell for less" mind set was perpetrated in the past by the ability of large dealers to buy for less than smaller dealers. Another falacy is that you must play a bjillion R13's to find a good one... this is bunk... correctly set up they are mostly all good ones... Here is why purchasing your R13 from an authorized B&H dealer who also has or is a good technician can work in your favor... when you are buying an instrument from "We be band instruments" for $50 over cost how much time, if any, is being taken to make sure the instrument you receive is playing up to it's ability? I know for a fact that the major retailer of R13's has told staff that "At this price we do not service the instruments before they are shipped!" even though they advertise that they check every instrument... In general, the Platinum service that is now being performed to instruments befroe they leave Sun Valley, Ca (Formerly Libertyville, IL) goes a long way to make the instruments very salable as they arrive at your B&H dealer... I know that most instruments I receive now have at least had the springs lightened up and the rings lowered. Still want to buy overseas?? Good luck... but more than that, make sure that a new instrument you are looking at has the appropriate USA originated warranty documents included...
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-06-05 21:27
FWIW, in the original thread on Klarinet I objected to the ("B&H") Policy because it can place the ultimate consumer (US) in a difficult situation ... when we had nothing to do with the problem ... and aren't the real solution either. This situation is not unique, Levi Strauss has similar problems!
This is MARKETING. This is between the Grandma ("B&H") & her Children ("Dealers"). Grandma wants to control her Children & asks that they pursue their business in a specified manner (subject to a B&H (Dealer) Agreement, Floor Plan & other things that a Dealer Agreement may involve). Now, If the Children don't behave, they are cast out and are no longer "Authorized". However, should the Grandkids (US) be punished for the sins of the Children?
How many of us (just prior to buying an instrument) check to see if the B & H (or similar) franchise was WITHDRAWN in the 24 hours that preceded their purchase? I didn't call B&H in Libertyville, IL to check & see if Lisa Argeris/IMS were still delaers just before purchasing a Buffet R-13.
To what end are we supposed to go, especially if we have knowledge that the Dealer had been "authorized" in the past? (Caveat emptor -- I think a state consumer protection-type agency -- I also think that B&H would stand good for the warranty in the latter situation) YES, its a possible problem. All rules have EXTREME ANGLES.
Enough of "retail politics". _Heeding Francois's warning is a very good idea_. That way the end user (US) will never get caught in the middle of a bad situation.
Best,
mw
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Author: David Kinder
Date: 2001-06-06 00:57
WOW!!! That's a lot of information that I didn't expect to receive, but I'm glad we've got some great knowledgable clarinetists on this board to help us do the best we can with what we've got! Thanks Y'all!
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Author: Wes
Date: 2001-06-06 17:07
Hi!
A friend purchased a new Selmer Series III alto sax from Matthews Music and found that they were easy to deal with and shipped quickly. The sax had no leaks but it had a couple of minor fixable items. This instrument is easy to play, fits the hands very well, sounds great, and has outstanding intonation top to bottom. The lower octave key hole was too small, causing the upper G# to want to drop an octave. This was drilled out by the buyer which fixed it. There also seems to be insufficient cement under some of the pads which can cause some flakey leaks. This is also easily fixed. In addition, some of the springs came adjusted to be very resistant.
The factories simply can't take a lot of time to fine tune high production instruments and still stay in business. If they did, a new clarinet would cost more. One usually has to have some adjustments made on a new instrument.
There was no duty charged for this sax when it came from Europe. It came in the best alto sax case I've ever seen.
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Author: Anji
Date: 2001-06-06 20:55
Sounds like an expensive load of C**P!, sorry overhead.
They make the horns in the same place, but pass them through more hands.
Silver service my a**.
Yet another arguement for second hand stuff.
These mooks are going to add more cost without improving the product.
Pretty soon all that will be left are makers in the Unisonic model.
General Electric has been pulling the same scam for years, winding motors in Eastern Europe for lower wages, importing them without duty and slapping an inspection sticker on one box out of 20.
It is high time for hand made horns to take off as a cottage industry. It is happening for Oboes and has done for flutes.
No wonder my teacher was willing to wait the 18 month gestation for her Chadash.
Pheh.
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Author: mary
Date: 2001-06-07 16:39
whew, after all that...
in december i bought a new buffet low c bass clar thru ebay from matthew's music. they were great to deal with, the bass has been fab with no problems, and i paid an incredible $4025 including shipping. lucky? maybe, but i'm glad i took the chance.
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