 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: modernicus
Date: 2013-07-19 17:19
Anybody know about these? I missed out on one offered at auction with the underside of some keys/body marked Sterling/S a number of years ago. Now I won a Frank Holton 17/7 with mechanical tuning barrel, fancy engraved bell and a visible S in pictures on the body (no pics of the undersides of the keys of this one and I haven't received it yet). I recall a website rating the Holton sterling models among the very best metal clarinets ever made, but I don't know if it is still around or if this is accurate or not. Apparently there was a 17/7 fairly deluxe standard model made 223- but did these have a mechanical tuning barrel? Apparently, according to other posters here in the past, their 220 was their claimed professional model 17/6 clarinet with optional silver and gold plating options of various sorts with a tunable barrel. I'm wondering how the one I saw years ago and the one I have on the way fit in with with these models. Is there a higher model yet that had at least partially solid sterling silver construction, such as like Silver Kings with the solid sterling bell? Would they have molded/engraved Sterling/S if they were just plated? Lots of metal clarinets were silver plated, even lower end ones.
Post Edited (2013-07-19 17:50)
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2013-07-19 18:37
Very few metal clarinets were manufactured in solid silver. The Wm. Haynes metal clarinets were solid silver but very few were made. The early double walled Penzel-Mueller Clari-Met's were also constructed from unplated metal that was alledgedly very close in composition to sterling silver. Not very many of these were made either.
Most of the high end metal clarinets were plated although some could be had with sterling bells like the Silver King.
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Author: modernicus
Date: 2013-07-19 20:33
That's sort of what I was getting at- why go to the trouble of stamping, molding, or whatever, when numerous metal clarinets were silver plated? On the one that got away, one of the keys specifically said "Sterling" (the entire word, while I believe the body just said "S". I am aware of the Haynes and Clari-Met (and the Triebert, etc...)double wall. I've learned to never say never when it comes to metal clarinets, though...=) As in virtually everybody thought there weren't any C's, but what do you know, a Conn Wonder C showed up at auction. Then, I saw in a list a Buffet double walled metal clarinet that had been for sale, as well as recently a picture of Selmer Ab in metal, which I had never heard of existing when looking around for information on them for some years now!
Post Edited (2013-07-19 21:10)
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Author: modernicus
Date: 2013-07-23 15:03
OK, got the clarinet today- indeed the keys all have sterling stamped along with silver hallmarks on them on the undersides. They are undoubtedly solid sterling silver. Body is marked S, along with a serial number 2153 above the register key. Body seems likely solid silver as well. Tunable barrel is stuck and is a slightly different color. 17 keys, 7 rings. No gold washed bell. Bell is has fancy flower and scroll engraving and says "Made by Frank Holton and Co., Elkhorn Wis." Two pivots for LH pinky keys, but a shared post on the A/G# throat keys. Were these some sort of experiment? Unfortunately, it has very mistreated and neglected- not sure what I will do with it.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2013-07-23 16:15
The Holton is 100% certain to be silver-plated, not solid silver. It doesn't matter much. Louis Lot flutes from the 19th century, which sell for umpteen thousand dollars, have a body made from a flat steel plate, rolled into a tube, welded and silver plated.
Ken Shaw
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Author: modernicus
Date: 2013-07-23 17:31
I am 100% certain the keys are solid sterling silver. They're even designed differently in a few spots as they are thicker where the silver would bend too easily on a more conventional design. Upon closer inspection, I see that the bell is indeed gold washed but largely worn off. I got the barrel to operate- it is definitely silver plated other metal of some sort. The body has a warmer, mellower look but I suppose could be plated. How would I go about telling?
Post Edited (2013-07-23 20:58)
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Author: modernicus
Date: 2013-07-23 20:56
Metal clarinets bodies are usually nickel silver or brass I thought.
Post Edited (2013-07-23 20:57)
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2013-07-24 05:23
modernicus wrote:
> Metal clarinets bodies are usually nickel silver or brass I
> thought.
>
The vast majority of them were but I don't doubt that other materials used from time to time depending on what was cheap and available.
Going back to your Holton clarinet, if you want to try to narrow down the time frame it was made you may want to research the logo engravings on Holton saxophones here: http://www.saxpics.com/ . The fact that you logo says "Elkhorn, WI" means that it was definitely made no earlier that April 1918 as that is when the Elkhorn factory opened (previous Holton factory was in Chicago). At some point they simplified "Frank Holton & Co." to simply "Holton". I'm not sure when this was but it's probably a reasonable bet that the clarinet logo would have changed at the same time as the saxophone logo so this could set your upper bound on date of manufacture (assuming that the available serial number lists are accurate, which is a bit of a crap shoot).
My guess is that you probably have a pretty rare model that was probably an attempt at a professional quality clarinet. It wouldn't surprise me if it was made to compete for one of the contracts to supply one of the military bands. It's important to note that Holton was always primarily known for their brasswinds and no so much for woodwinds. They made some decent saxophones that have a small following today but few people consider them to be on the same level as the other American manufacturers like Conn, King, Buescher, or Martin. For that reason I would caution that your clarinet will probably have very little resale value even if it turns out to be an excellent player. The just the way it is with clarinet that were not made by one of the well known makers unfortunately.
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Author: jim lande
Date: 2013-08-01 05:29
From a Holton catalog from before 1932 -- but probably not a lot before:
"The body of the Holton Silvered Clarinet is of Nickel Silver, encased in Sterling Silver....The keys, mechanism and thumb rest of the Holton Silvered Clarinets are of genuine solid Sterling Silver -- unaffected by perspiration of the hands or fingers. The springs are of specially tempered blue steel. Price, complete in beautiful black "sharkoid" covered case, lined with genuine silk plush, $150.
Nickel silver, of course, does not contain any silver but rather is a nickle alloy.
$150 was a lot of money in 1930. ($2,097.34 in today's dollars, according to the CPI calculator.) The average annual wage rate in 1930 was $1,343. (BEA statistics)
I seriously doubt that these Holtons were made before 1927 as the Silva Bet, introduced around then, was described as the first fully successful metal clarinet. Probably sales fluff, but my impression is that they were the first to go for the mass market. Yes, Conn Wonders, Penzel Muller Clari-Mets and possibly the Haynes solid silver were made before that, so I suppose it is possible that the Holton was, too. Based on eBay listings, not many were made.
I have one but have not restored it, yet. Solid silver keys can be a pain to repad. Literally. Heat runs through the keys and can burn your fingers.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2013-08-01 16:11
Jim,
Use silicone RTV (glue/sealant) for repadding, as I've been preaching for years (some will say "pissing in the wind" about for years). No heat, no problems.
BTW I just acquired a Bettoney Silva-Bet in nearly mint condition, what a neat instrument! Can't wait to overhaul it and see how it plays.
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Author: modernicus
Date: 2013-08-02 06:32
Jim, that's exactly the info I was looking for, thanks- though I wish you had a report on playing characteristics as well. Mine is not in good shape, so would require quite a bit of work and/or money to restore. Does yours have a matte finish over the whole thing, even the keys?
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2013-08-02 14:24
Please, never use silicone to put in a pad. It is difficult to remove when the time comes.
Steve Ocone
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2013-08-02 18:52
Steven Ocone wrote:
> Please, never use silicone to put in a pad. It is difficult to
> remove when the time comes.
>
It might depend on what type of silicon adhesive is used. The silicon adhesives I've seen used for pad installation were actually quite easy to remove from the pad cups. Certainly easier than removing shellac.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2013-08-02 19:51
Steven O: What SteveG said. I've been using hardware-store silicone glue, and easily removing it when needed, for some 20 years now.
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2013-08-02 22:34
What I have encountered are pads that take a lot of time and effort to remove. I don't have any other experience to go by. I'm glad that it isn't always a problem.
Steve Ocone
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Author: jim lande
Date: 2013-09-22 04:03
Modernicus: Honestly, i don't recall the finish. Or exactly where I have that horn stashed.
David: You used that stuff on the King alto you sold me. I ended up taking it to someone because the pads really weren't right. He ended up resetting a lot of the pads. He isn't keen on hot glue, either but doesn't complain like he did with the sax.
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Author: johntownley
Date: 2017-03-08 07:59
This is late in the game, but I just saw the exact same Holton sterling key (one of which I owned for some time) on eBay, identical -- sterling keys, gold wash bell, the same artwork on the bell, except it was called a Petatin. The serial number (2xxx) only 20 instruments away from mine. All the characteristics of a Bettoney Silva Bet, including the bell attachment ring pattern, but with the sterling and gold wash added. And now for sure, it's a stencil, since there are two variations...wonder what the story is...
John Townley, Sea Cliff, NY
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Author: modernicus
Date: 2017-03-08 18:45
I just took a look- nice spotting johntownley! I still don't have mine fixed up yet but the news since then is that they are good.
Post Edited (2017-03-08 18:47)
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Author: johntownley
Date: 2017-03-09 02:18
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Yes, it’s a good instrument, very accurate and fairly loud, takes a while to warm up, very heavy, a lot of metal there, mine was restored before I got it so it worked fine. Not as sweet or resonant as my 1928-29 Silver King, but a little funkier which could be nice for trad jazz. The Silver King generally has a more clean, trumpety, metallic but sweet sound which in the clarion range is perfect for baroque trumpet parts and the like, while the lower register is still warm and mellow, smooth and not reedy. Great for clean music (like a clean setting on a good vintage electric guitar – this is the Gretsch Country Gentleman, or Gibson ES-330, of the clarinet world), but not so much for folk and ethnic (though great for more classicalesque Scots fiddle airs). Would never part with it, however, it can’t be beat. But, I sold the sterling-key mystery to go on further adventures to try to get something metal that’s entirely different.
And, further adventures bring other sounds, as modernicus will attest, encouraged by whom I got found a working Alexandre Paris metal (with no serial number) which has its own funky little tone that is perfect for bagpipe-like music in all registers. Very easy action, a little weak on the left pinky C#/F# key, but otherwise skirls just like a pipe chanter. Not as loud as Silver King or mystery sterling key instrument, but very supple and light. And it certainly is a product of the Selmer folks, as evinced by its case which is identical to those of most Selmers from that early metal period, with its little diamond-shaped lock.
The final adventure so far, however, has been a no-name, no-serial number, jointed 7-ring wonder that I got for a song for restoral. The person who sold it to me said it looked like a Conn (it does) and because of the extra ring, middle joint, and tunable barrel was likely of quality, so I took a risk. It was totally black, pads unworkable, but I did get enough sound out of parts of it that it seemed to have possibilities. Had it repadded and generally restored by Jordan Kinsey in Delaware who did a great job, highly recommended. And, it’s quite thunderous beast, with a big, open throat, fully as loud and rich as the Silver King, but totally other tonality...intonation is different (as is every instrument) and a bit more patchy with the throat tones being a trifle sharp (fixable by fingering) but a great, full texture. Is it really an American-made Conn? Impossible to tell. After cleaning, the only marking of any kind was on the tunable barrel (which might or might not be original to the instrument), which read “MADE IN GERMANY”. It’s even more mysterious (and more pleasing) than the sterling silver keyed stencil. Some photos attached, would love if someone knew something more...
Next adventure on the way is a Bettoney stencil (Wells, a rare one, don’t know whose label that is, might be Frank Wells, Chicago, of mouthpiece fame) of their upper-middle line model (the Boston Wonder), had one like it (another rarey, The Dictator Line, New Orleans, Waco) and loved it but it was falling apart. Generally not as loud, but accurate, tight, easy fingering, but will see on this one...
John Townley, Sea Cliff, NY
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Author: modernicus
Date: 2017-03-11 05:51
I wonder if "Petatin" might be a custom engraving of the original owner's name? These were pretty expensive new, during the depression- bet if you contacted the company offering even more $$$ at the time they would whip up a custom engraved one for you...
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Author: johntownley
Date: 2017-03-11 22:03
Might be, but a rather obscure name it is...a search turns up no one by that (French) name since 1847...still wondering the origin of the "Wells" Bettoney stencil...someone on The Clarinet Pages forum last August said they were compiling a list of stencils and their makers, including metal, but nothing since. Know anything about this? Would be nice...the Wells has a low # but no letter in front (should be a P for the general Boston Wonder stencil class), the final patent notice (after March 1929), and a small adjustable barrel, but not the big patented one that the Bet has. But sounds great, awaiting restoration now...
John Townley, Sea Cliff, NY
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2017-03-12 14:55
I have a friend who is an expert on metal clarinets and said that this Petatin is a Holton stencil. He had one and said they are nice clarinets and he sold his for $800.00.
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Author: johntownley
Date: 2017-03-12 19:08
Yes, I had the Holton version, identical, as does modernicus, but our question to begin with was, is the Holton version itself a stencil. It looks and feels so like a Silva Bet it's uncanny, as does the four-figure serial numbering, which is not consistent with Holtosn but with Bettoneys.
John Townley, Sea Cliff, NY
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Author: modernicus
Date: 2017-03-12 19:30
I think we have the strong suspicion that these were made by Bettony, at least I do.
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2017-03-12 20:03
Sometime this week my Charles F Triebert Master Model made in 1929 in France Bb silver plated clarinet will be back from the overhaul shop and I will post pictures.
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Author: johntownley
Date: 2017-04-01 18:32
Love the double-sleeve barrel, like a Silver King or a Selmer metal (or its level-down version the Alexandre Paris)...
John Townley, Sea Cliff, NY
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2017-04-02 08:57
It is very light. Total weight without the mouthpiece is 1LB 10.9 OZ. Feels lighter than an R13. This week I will be finishing an R13 that I am working on and will weigh it for comparison. Should be interesting.
Post Edited (2017-04-02 13:28)
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Author: clarii2
Date: 2017-04-04 02:01
i started out for two years having lessons on a metal clarinet in bellefonte pa. american legion band. my clarinet teacher was in the army bands during w.w. 2. a tyrant. he also was a great repairman(olin butt). once i was "squeaking" alot and he took my clarinet and bent it over his knee and straightened it. i stopped squeaking right away. i kid you not. i would have been 10 and 11 years old. 1953-54 any one else start on metal clarinet? paul
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Author: Wes
Date: 2017-04-04 22:24
Yes, I started playing the Boehm clarinet on a metal instrument after first buying and playing on a simple system wood clarinet. The band director said to use olive oil on the keys, which made them very sluggish, which I had to correct. I even had it when I started lessons with Earl Handlon of the Minneapolis Symphony, Marcellus's first teacher. Later, I got a fine Noblet wood clarinet with a doubled F/C key.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2017-04-05 03:36
When I was in the RAF during the early 60's I played a metal Eb in the station band. It had no makers name anywhere, but it appears identical to a Buffet Eb of the late 1800's. It's an Albert system instrument with salt-spoon pad cups and plays surprisingly well. When the base closed I "souvenired" it and have it still. Had I not done so it would have been sold as scrap metal. There are those who think that this was part of an evolutionary process and that I shouldn't have interfered.
Prodded somewhat by this thread, I dug out an old Selmer metal Bb from my "gunna" box and have repadded and polished it. It sounds good, tunes well and I plan to give it an airing tonight at a Dixieland gig.
Tony F.
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2017-04-05 15:48
Clarineteer - Your instrument and my Couesnon are from the same stable. It looks like yours was made in 1929. Mine was 1930.
Chris
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2017-04-06 13:16
I'll check it again tonight, but I think the throat Bb was a bit off but nothing remarkable for the rest of the instrument, if I remember rightly.
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2017-04-07 09:26
As I previously stated the Triebert weighs 1 LB 10.9 oz and I just weighed an R13 Bb and it weighs 1 LB 10 oz.
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Author: jim lande
Date: 2017-06-29 08:22
I have a Triebert metal and don't like it as much as some other models. I'm pretty sure the plating is over an alloy that is more brass than some. Tony F -- I'd love to see pix of your eefer. That sounds like a very unusual instrument.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2017-06-30 04:37
Hi Jim,
As requested, here are some pics of my Eb. The Selmer Bb that I mentioned played very well.
Tony F.
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