 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: J-MB
Date: 2017-06-27 22:54
Regarding Weber's Concerto 1 cadenza, for the state I live in, we can only choose between 3 editions, Southern Music co Tx, Carl Fischer, ans Cundy-Bettoney. I have found that Southern Music and Carl Fischer do not have the cadenza, but does Cundy-Bettoney? Would learning the Baermann cadenza be worth it?
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2017-06-28 00:19
Wow. Is this also one of those states where one must buy one's whiskey from the government? Have Lienau and Henle been outlawed ever since 1941? In my opinion, the Baermann cadenza makes it a better, more balanced movement, but for many of the other changes in the Carl Baermann edition, I really prefer the original. The point of Weber 1 is not simply to play a lot of notes really fast. The beauty of the Henle edition is that it gives you both, and you can decide. Not familiar with the Cundy-Bettoney edition, though things I've seen from them before would not encourage much optimism. Out of curiosity, what's the penalty for unlawful ornamentation there?
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Author: J-MB
Date: 2017-06-28 00:49
it’s off the list for solo and ensemble for our state, so i can’t learn the cadenza for competition, but would it be worth while to learn for auditions?
Post Edited (2017-06-28 00:56)
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2017-06-28 17:38
>> ...would it be worth while to learn for auditions? >>
You could learn it in order to PLAY it.
Tony
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Author: ClarinetRobt
Date: 2017-06-28 19:16
I honestly can say I haven't heard it performed without the cadenza in decades. I'd think it's pretty standard now. It adds to the the movement and probably increases the difficulty by a grade level.
I'd personally risk "penalty of unlawful embellishments" (I love that phrase, LoL)...add all the tasteful (pretty I'll hear about this) ornamentation as you see fit. Romantic music, Weber... have a little fun!
Sometimes you can petition the state and ask to play solo not on the list.
~Robt L Schwebel
Mthpc: Behn Vintage
Lig: Ishimori, Behn Delrin
Reed: Legere French Cut 3.75/4, Behn Brio 4
Horns: Uebel Superior (Bb,A), Ridenour Lyrique, Buffet R13 (Eb)
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Author: rmk54
Date: 2017-06-28 22:39
I'd personally risk "penalty of unlawful embellishments"
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You obviously do not live in Connecticut.
Here, the enlightened individuals that judge All-State will deduct points for deviating in any way from the proscribed edition, wrong notes and all.
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Author: J-MB
Date: 2017-06-28 22:43
Yea in my state you have to go straight from the editions the say, maybe ill learn the cadenza in free time
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2017-06-28 23:12
I don't live in CT, but need to keep things to several different versions of a solo, often has to do with fairness, not publisher royalties or an attempt to limit artistic expression, even through, albeit, the artist's lack of complete flexibility, working against a list, does limit it. I'll give you that.
In well run programs judges are certified to know all versions of all solos they sit for, and are tested against recordings of said works, done at different levels of proficiency, often in mass, to develop consistent rankings. The list has to be broad enough for artistic expression, and yet short enough to be able to train jurists in standards of proficiency.
Such artistic ratings, that paradoxically limit the palette of colors the artist can use are not meant to promote rigidity, but rather recognize it as a necessary side effect of a higher goal: making sure kids from "San Franciso to San Diego" get similar judging in their locales.
Which versions to insist on, and how many, that's another hurdle, that at least in my locale starts with a ranking of the versions as suggested by experts, in turn based in part on popularity of use.
Does that mean the "truly beautiful version," few play, sometime based on things not necessarily related to music (e.g politics) sometimes gets cut from the list?
Yes.
We also can't insist that kids have 2 copies of the music in original from the publisher, that they pay for, if the beautiful version is only available from some obscure French publisher who charges $75 per copy.
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Author: ClarinetRobt
Date: 2017-06-29 01:42
The last I heard in (savage) Texas' UIL, as long as the approved UIL edition was noted (change articulations, breath, etc) on the original score handed the judge, then no worries. Of course the judge can take issue with the student making the interpretive changes on personal level, but nonetheless, the musician's intentions were clearly marked for the judge.
I'd hope any clarinetist judging Weber 1, would already know the expansive interpretations offered, regardless of edition. But if I was in HS in CT, I'd play the game they have me play. This would be no time for ego. Perhaps that's a good thing.
Actually, this type of drama is the sole reason I wouldn't play Mozart in HS. My peers and teachers told of 'shouting matches over changing articulations' to tongued vs slurring vs mixed articulations. I suspect the drama of the stories weren't that close to reality. But I didn't want to risk a first division over a phrasing interpretation. So I mucked up other piece like Weber 1 without incident.
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Author: ClarinetRobt
Date: 2017-06-29 02:04
J-MB...
Though I don't know what state you're in, I'm surprised they'd remove classic clarinet literature from your list. It's disheartening.
For years, in Texas, college professors and professionals having been fighting to put the "big/beefy" clarinet solos on the UIL approved list. There's no Copland, Nielsen. The people who approved the selections will tell you no one can play them...what's the point. Interesting all the trumpet stuff is on their list...humm.
I always wondered who told Stephen Williamson or Richard Hawkins (forgetting about myself) they shouldn't even bother attempting bigger works in HS. Put it on the darn list, doesn't hurt anything. If only one in 100K play it, so be it. The player would have to have a lot of pluck and just might pull it off.
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Author: J-MB
Date: 2017-06-29 02:18
i think the problem with using editions with the cadenza is the time restraint and with already making cuts to the piano, the cadenza would not be feasible to fit in the time frame.
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Author: ClarinetRobt
Date: 2017-06-29 02:38
That makes sense. I'd never considered you might have a time restraint.
Practice it...you'll get to play it in a few years. Weber and Baermann aren't going anywhere.
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2017-06-29 07:55
Mr. Schwebel:
At least in my State, (i.e. at the High School level) there are many acceptable ways of playing a particular publisher's version of many pieces, Mozart's 1st and 3rd mvts being the classical example of having numerous interpretations.
To point, the judging standard is not so rigid that students are limited to tonguing or slurring exactly how its written for the version of a piece they've chosen. Certain parts allow either octave too, irrespective of the written page.
As for broadening the acceptable material at the college level, particularly when auditioning at a top music school, I agree, more flexibility might be a good thing so students can demonstrate virtuosity like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qb3ktqyDuKU
but many of these auditions have both stated repertoire and permission for the auditioner to pick something out of the box as well, right?
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2017-06-29 17:33
The Baermann cadenza adds what, 30 - 40 seconds? The Lienau edition, which is essentially the Carl Baermann version, costs what, $15? The concern for fairness in judging is certainly reasonable, but including some mediocre editions and excluding the good ones isn't really the message competitions should be sending. And top players' interpretations of Weber 1 are all over the place, even when they're all playing the same version (which in Germany is pretty much straight Carl Baermann). So given the fact that Weber knew that the person he wrote the piece for would be throwing in all sorts of elaboration, does a judge reward or penalize a player for not playing exactly what's in the part? It just seems like the mindset is a little off; the conditions of the competition aren't compatible with space an artist gets into to really play a piece like that.
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