 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: StevenWayne
Date: 2017-06-24 17:14
I've overhauled a metal clarinet, old H.N. White Am. Standard. It is somewhat stuffy. It has new leather pads and new corks. But the pads may not be opening far enough according? to what I just read.
Do you agree that the pad needs to open at least 1/3 of the diameter of the tone hole? Some of mine may not be opening that far. I'll measure some again.
I did a spot check on some of the distances. I'm pretty close to right on, with some opening a bit further than 1/3 diameter of the tone hole.
I probably have some leaks.
Did the suction leak test by stuffing a wet rag into the bell and covering the appropriate holes. After sucking the air out, it sealed pretty tight. I doubt I can make it tighter. I can't do a light leak test with the light I have on hand sol I'd need to improvise something. I also did the feeler gauge test with thin paper and very thin aluminum foil.
Post Edited (2017-06-24 17:38)
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2017-06-24 17:51
When you do the suction test how long does it hold a vacuum? If you take your finger off of the low E/B lever while doing the test how long does it take for the key to pop back up?
-Jdbassplayer
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Author: StevenWayne
Date: 2017-06-24 18:28
Well, I tried the test a few times just now. I was able to get and hold suction as long as I could hold it, and the last time was the most successful. The low E/B held shut for several seconds after I released it. It didn't pop up until I quit the test.
Thanks for that. I never thought to release the key to see how long it would hold shut.
Post Edited (2017-06-24 18:31)
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2017-06-24 19:36
When you say as long as you can hold it, do you mean you were constantly sucking air through the instrument? You should perform the test by first sucking the air out, then close your lips to isolate the instrument from your lungs and breathe through your nose. Start counting as soon as you close your lips. The E/B key should stay closed for at least 3 seconds, although I try to shoot for ten seconds or more.
-Jdbassplayer
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2017-06-24 19:36
Two things:
If it passed the suction test it's likely to pass the pressure test--but it's worth a try.
Put on a pair of summer shorts--I assure you, there's method to my seeming madness here.
Assemble the upper and lower joints, maybe the barrel too, heck, even the mouthpiece, but no reed.
Leave the bell off.
Dig the open end of the lower joint into an exposed thigh/calf (i.e. skin--to prevent air from escaping, while blowing into the mouthpiece, fully covering its window. Does the clarinet resist you (a good thing)? Do you hear hissing?
(You can do this test sans mouthpiece and barrel, but I'm testing the corks between the joints too.)
Sometimes a spring that keeps a pad closed isn't strong enough. This wouldn't come up on a suction test, but might rear its ugly head in a blow test.
==
Second topic..pad height. Are certain notes stuffy or all notes? Stuffy to your ears, or stuffy as in resistant to air flow?
(Of course the same mouthpiece reed setup blows better on another clarinet, correct?)
Yes, pad height can at times help a note to speak better...classic example the C#/G# lever at the bottom of the upper joint affected with the left pinky. (A key that many, like Selmer, believe belongs lower down the instrument, like at the intersection of the upper and lower joints.)
But this is not to say, to quote the classic prescription metaphor, if 1 pill is prescribed, two pulls will work twice as fast.
To point, there are limits to how high a pad should come off its tone hole. Too high can throw off a player's expectation of its fingering and make play more finger work and harder.
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Author: StevenWayne
Date: 2017-06-24 22:08
Yes, the latter. Pretty sure it held for more than 3 seconds.
Do leather pads require a break-in period?
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Author: StevenWayne
Date: 2017-06-24 22:17
I've used the bare leg to seal the end before. 😄
This is a metal clarinet that doesn't break down. Except for the barrel that is. I find if I stuff a wet rag inside the bell it works pretty good, as long as you put pressure on the wadded rag.
Stuffy more in the upper joint, and to my ears. I will also try another mp or two and another reed.
I'll try the pressure test too.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-06-24 22:31
Leather pads are good to go as soon as they're seated like any other pad. There is no 'break-in' period with pads - they either seal or they don't. They should be checked to see how they're seating using light finger pressure to close them as well as being seated without any excessive force.
So they could either not be seating correctly and have a leak somewhere, they could have recovered and started leaking if they were installed using heavy finger pressure or they could be porous and air can be leaking through the leather.
As for the specific ventings, give the speaker key, throat A key (G# will follow suit) and trill keys around 2mm. Give the G vent (LH1 ring key), side F# key and both Eb/Bb keys around 2-2.5mm and the C#/G# key around 2.5mm. The LH2 ring key (with vent key for E/B) will have its venting determined by the RH ring keys.
RH ring key and cross B/F# 'sliver' key around 2.5-3mm, Ab/Eb key 3mm and a minimum of 3mm for the F/C key which is determined by the venting of the E/B key which can be as much as 4mm depending on the leverages in relation to the F/C key (the point where the crow's foot contacts the E/B touch will determine this).
If you have these ventings set and things are still stuffy, especially in the low register on the C, C# and E, then try using a softer reed.
If the bell is soldered on, then you're best sealing it by stretching a surgeons' glove over the bell to seal it off, then do the suction test. This works well on saxes too.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2017-06-24 22:34
It that case I think it's safe to say there are no serious leaks. It may just be the design of the instrument. The American Standard was the lowest priced model King offered so I wouldn't expect them to play much better that today's student instruments. You could try experimenting with mouthpieces. Some of my older instruments only play well with period correct mouthpieces.
If you look down the bore of the instrument, how smooth is it? I had an old "Sonata Deluxe" metal clarinet once that I was able to make play better by polishing the bore with very fine grit sandpaper (1500+). It may be worth trying since the instrument is not very valuable to begin with.
-Jdbassplayer
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Author: smokindok
Date: 2017-06-25 07:41
Regarding: "I've used the bare leg to seal the end before", and "I find if I stuff a wet rag inside the bell it works pretty good, as long as you put pressure on the wadded rag."
I thought sticking a squash ball in the bell was the official way to seal up the end of a clarinet.
I prefer a Dunlop single yellow dot, though more experienced instrument techs would probably use a double yellow dot.
John
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2017-06-25 16:05
John,
That's the first I've ever heard of using a squash ball. I think everyone has their own method they prefer to use. I personally have a large rubber stopper that I stick in the bell to seal it off.
-Jdbassplayer
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-06-25 18:08
Have you ever done a vacuum test on an alto or tenor sax using a surgeons' glove to seal the bell? Try it with the mouthpiece and reed on - it's hilarious! I don't know why I didn't expect it to do what it did.
The glove acts like a diaphragm and gets sucked into the bell when the vacuum is created. Therefore it will draw air back into the instrument once you take the mouthpiece out of your mouth after sucking the air out from it.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: smokindok
Date: 2017-06-25 19:43
Chris, rest assured I will be trying the glove thing later today!
John
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