 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Agomongo
Date: 2017-05-07 11:57
So a friend of mine was telling me about a certain college that that person is going to. I'm not going to mentions names or school.
Apparently in the studio class the other students laugh out loud at the other persons playing abilities. I didn't want to ask anymore about specific examples, because that would have infuriated me even more. Right now my rage is at a point that I don't even know what to do, but to scream angrily. How can people do that? Even more importantly, how can the teacher allow such immature and narrow minded behavior?
Or another behavior that's just as bad is when there are multiple studios and students from one studio see others as "lesser" players, because they're not in the same studio. A friend of mine said, "Everytime the other studio see me I swear I feel like they think I'm a r*tarded dog." Sorry for using the R word, but to use such a strong word I feel like it was important to add it.
What are you thoughts on it?
Post Edited (2017-05-07 12:01)
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Author: chris moffatt
Date: 2017-05-07 17:29
Throttle back the rage - it only hurts you, nobody else - and accept that the world is full of unpleasant, nasty people to be avoided when possible. Concentrate on your own playing and be glad you don't attend that College.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2017-05-07 17:31
I've heard it said that there are only two types of individuals in a group dynamic: contributors and contaminators.
As you describe it - yes the behavior is childish and petty. There are childish and petty people in the world. In reality it's all the behavior of insecurity.
Yes the professors should seek to address it, if they are aware and if they are capable. That said: I don't know how a professor can be expected to police student behavior, even though they can absolutely have a huge influence on the individual students and the studio dynamic...if they have that type of personality/relationship with their students.
One simple solution would be to break down the distinctions between studios. Currently Gilbert and Burrows teach everyone in three week cycles -- I think that's a fantastic idea.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2017-05-07 17:34
Moffatt's point is a good one. I would say it a different way: one (your friend at this school you describe) can only receive disrespect from someone you've given respect.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2017-05-07 19:20
Anger and rage will get students nothing but ulcers and hypertension or lead them to drug and alcohol dependence. Better for them to exercise their rights in a free market educational system and choose a friendlier place to study clarinet. There are still many academically sound colleges in the US with music schools that teach clarinet by private tutor rather than group lessons. Shop around, seek them out, and consider transferring. Often these schools hire a symphony pro on a contractual basis to teach clarinet privately there (usually in weekly lessons). Students often get to study with a better player than they would find at many of the big-name, factory-like studios--without a jeering crowd to harass them.
Post Edited (2017-05-07 23:38)
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Author: Agomongo
Date: 2017-05-08 10:11
Very true and I've calmed down since then. However, it's still unacceptable and hard to fathom that a teacher wouldn't even say anything about it. I know that Yehuda Gilad over at USC makes it so that students treat each other like family, or at least tries to and pushes his students to be good musicians and people.
It's true people who judge others are insecure about their own playing and need to grow up.
It's great that Burrow and Gilbert do that. Massive respect and props to them. Both fantastic teachers too.
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Author: SarahC
Date: 2017-05-08 16:08
It is very hard to get a group of students to respect each other.
I spend a lot of effort in encouraging respecting all stages of the learning journey... but not all students will follow suit.
It is hard.
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2017-05-08 19:31
The movie "Whiplash" gets into this, and examines the moral and artistic angles pretty well. There are levels of doing the stuff that some people reach because they're just fantastically talented and self-disciplined, others can reach by extreme motivation and teaching that can leave them sort of twisted, and most of us just aren't going to reach. It's all cause and effect, and we have to decide what we're going to engage with and what we're not. Probably wasn't that different in Mozart's time.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-05-08 20:22
Sarah Willis, hornist with the Berlin Philharmonic mentioned in a fairly recent documentary she suffered the indignity and emotional upset of being laughed at by some trumpet players during an audition when she was in her teens. She was pretty choked up even talking about it, so this sort of thing can do long term emotional harm.
It made me wonder what became of those trumpet players - considering Sarah Willis has been with the Berlin Phil for a pretty lengthy time, is she having the last laugh?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2017-05-09 17:12)
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2017-05-08 20:44
It's a tough subject area, covering all areas of life. We all want to be treated with respect, even when (as is frequently the case) we may not deserve it. Many of us would like to influence people- by legal restriction or rules or social pressure or religious principal- to relate nicely to others in all circumstances, though we know that is well nigh impossible even (if we admit it) ourselves.
On the other hand, we also would like to be impervious to such assaults. Some are better at that than others- does that make them better in some sense? Can we train children how to ignore disrespect? Should we? Are we making people more sensitive by trying to remove irritants? Would we want a military with no screaming drill sergeants? ...or troops who couldn't take a snide jab from the guy (gal) in the next foxhole? I have no answers, I am conflicted in my own world.
I do very much like the concept that success is the best answer to critics, whether of the fair and balanced or nasty variety.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2017-05-08 21:31
Golden rule stuff. If you think it's okay to laugh at your lesser peers, then the professors at your jury should laugh at you...because you are their lesser peer. Reciprocity. Part of childhood is learning how to socialize with others around you in a healthy way. If these college students haven't learned this yet, it's not too late. At the same time, we're (as a society) increasingly prone to elevate rude people into idol status. What a conflicting message! We speak against anything that might even be remotely regarded as "bullying" - yet we hold accomplished bullies in high esteem (certain conductors and band leaders come to mind)...because "bullies get results."
At the same time, it seems society in general might benefit from toughening up a bit. I can't imagine that any of our grandfathers or grandmothers, great grandfathers or great grandmothers would have allowed such trivial laughter to have hurt them or hinder their progress towards a goal.
I agree with seabreeze's statements too. Depending on the situation - if I were the one being laughed at, I would either double down and prove them all wrong, or I would find a place more willing to provide the type of environment I enjoy learning in. Life isn't always fair, but most of the time, we have options to at least somewhat mitigate the issues which arise.
;^)>>>
Fuzzy
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2017-05-08 21:42
The tendency to denigrate or even bully is part of the general wiring of human beings. Individuals have more or less, but generally it's there. Overcoming such innate tendencies is part of personal growth. Life is a process of discovering that reality differs radically from what we came wired up to deal with.
Individual successes aside, if a single person had the average degree of all human tendencies, good or bad, they'd be locked up as dangerously and irremediably insane.
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2017-05-09 03:59
Agomongo wrote: "Very true and I've calmed down since then. However, it's still unacceptable and hard to fathom that a teacher wouldn't even say anything about it. I know that Yehuda Gilad over at USC makes it so that students treat each other like family, or at least tries to and pushes his students to be good musicians and people.
It's true people who judge others are insecure about their own playing and need to grow up.
It's great that Burrow and Gilbert do that. Massive respect and props to them. Both fantastic teachers too."
There's definitely a feeling of family here. It's not that Yehuda really enforces it as a rule — it's just sort of a mutual understanding that we're all in it together. Although he was very clear at the beginning of the year that he expects us all to be good people.
I was a little concerned about coming into the studio as one of the only undergrads — and, this year, one of the only people studying with someone other than Yehuda — but the grad students have been really welcoming and I've gotten to be good friends with many of them. Everyone is really supportive of one another, and is able to both give and take constructive criticism.
Perhaps the teacher(s) in question should make it similarly clear that there needs to be mutual respect and support. Also, removing the distinction between studios could help. (Treating it as the "University of X clarinet studio" instead of "Professor X's studio" and "Professor Y's studio.")
The rotation idea is nice, although some teachers prefer that their students only study with one person at a time, so there aren't "too many cooks in the kitchen."
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2017-05-09 05:35
Ego is a waste of time.
When you think someone is beneath you, you loose all opportunity to learn from them. You spend all your energy listening for what is wrong, rather than what is right. That is a major waste of time and effort. The mockers may think they are superior (and they may in fact be better players), but their mocking is holding them back.
Maybe some people would be motivated to improve themselves in that situation. Not me. I'm sure the teacher is at least partly responsible. People can be jerks. You can't control that, but you can control how you respond. You can't go from massively upset to perfectly fine overnight, but you can know they don't actually control you, and accept that you can't control them. It wouldn't be wrong for your friend to stay or to go elsewhere, but they shouldn't allow other people's immature behavior to ruin their schooling.
- Matthew Simington
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2017-05-09 16:28
It is true that in some schools with more than one teacher that the students of one teacher feel superior to the other. I experienced that for some time in my teaching career with some, but not all, the student of another teacher for a period of a few years. It was more of a few students as apposed to the teacher because when those 2-3 students graduated the "ugly competition" ceased. What made it interesting was when some of my students won the top seating auditions for the ensembles. Really pissed some off the other studios "superior" students. It only took a few ugly students to create an uncomfortable setting. By the way, several of my students have become pros.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Agomongo
Date: 2017-05-10 06:13
Sorry for the late response. Preparing for finals.
Great to hear a lot of people.
@ChrisP I know someone who told me the ones who came into the practice to purposely talk down on others were never heard from again. So for the trumpet players rude to Sarah it would make sense they weren't heard from again.
@SaraC True to have a hard time to get all students to respect each other, but I believe a teacher should attempt to influence a student on how to treat each other. Not just sit there and let it happen.
@dorjepismo I can see that argument and I do agree that some people need to be kicked in the *ss to get working, but I don't really believe that creates the best artist.
@fskelley Yeah there is an argument that we shouldn't shield students and baby them, however there's a difference between a jerk who gives criticism and a jerk who's insecure. Also, let's be honest to make it into the musician's world you have to be charming. Or at least if you want to capitalize on your potential.
Also, the drill sergeant analogy doesn't vibe with me. Music is art not really military. Sure we can drill our practice and be disciplined, but I believe it's more important to create in the practice room rather than drill.
The other part too is that these "kids" are just laughing not really giving constructive criticism. So it's really not that helpful other than building tough character, but you can still build tough character while still being helpful.
@fuzzy I see both arguments in that it gets results. Though people like Kleiber, Abbado, Hawkins, Gilbert, etc. come into mind when getting results too. Then there are people like Karajan and Toscanini that do a great job too. Though we all know that deep down Karajan and Toscanini deeply cared about the orchestra.
I know that Hawkins studied with a very harsh teacher in high school. I'm studying with him right now, but he's actually super nice... he's old so he's mellowed out (he is the best teacher I have ever had.) Which begs the question: was Hawkins successful because he had a harsh teacher AND a good teacher? Or was he successful because the teacher was a good teacher and being harsh didn't really do anything. In other words, a teacher can be harsh, but if he has no substance then does it really matter? We all know those teachers that are harsh, but don't produce good students. So is harsh really necessary? I guess for some, but I feel like being both harsh and caring is what wil produce the best results.
Yes the argument that if we're too soft we're creating babies, however at the same time I feel like overly harsh teachers and leaders cause the players to become robotic and a technical machine rather than an artist. I've heard players who are technically proficient, but just very uninteresting to listen to because of their overly harsh teachers; since they're so afraid to make a mistake that they would be yelled at. My favorite artists make mistakes all the time like Frost, Horowitz, Pires, and more. There can be a perfect balance I guess between strict and caring. Some actions are just asinine and do more harm than good. Like allowing other people to laugh at other people without being helpful at all.
@Matt74 Fully agree. You can learn from anyone and anyone can be anyone's teacher if they'r willing
@Philip Caron I can see that, but I don't think being a jerk is an innate sense. I think people who are jerks are being either sarcastic or are just insecure.
@Ed Palanker Also, yes I agree a couple of bad apples can ruin an entire experience. I heard about the 3 feet rule. If a principal is toxic any player within a 3 foot radius is going to have a bad time and just ruin the ensemble. Especially since it's a ripple effect.
@maxopf Congrats on making it to USC! Good to hear Yehuda makes an effort to create a nurturing environment and it's working too! A horn friend of mine is obsessed with a horn teacher named VerMeulen. From what I've heard one of the processes in being accepted is that you go out to dinner with all the horn players. All of them have to like you in order to be accepted... along with the audition. Interesting... don't agree with it, but it's his way of doing things.\
@David Blumberg I agree it is ugly as h*ll and it's still even now to comprehend such behavior
Post Edited (2017-05-10 06:17)
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2017-05-10 09:47
@Agomongo sorry this is slightly off topic, but you said you study with Hawkins — so you're at Oberlin? I know one of the clarinetists in the studio there. Evan.
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Author: Agomongo
Date: 2017-05-10 12:27
maxopf wrote:
> @Agomongo sorry this is slightly off topic, but you said you
> study with Hawkins — so you're at Oberlin? I know one of the
> clarinetists in the studio there. Evan.
No haha. I've gotten two lessons with him and use to keep in close contact with him. However, I didn't make it into Oberlin. Which was fine by me I knew I wasn't ready to study with him. Plus my playing style was different than what he was looking for. Though this is a whole other conversation as to why it was for the best. When I finished my audition he asked where else I was auditioning. I told him that I was auditioning at the University of Houston. He actually told me that in high school he studied with Randall Griffin. He's the teacher I'm currently studying with and I can see the similarities in their pedagogy.
Perhaps we can talk about this through email? If you're interested enough. Anyway who's the clarinetist you're thinking of? I know only 1 clarinetist who studies at Oberlin. Great player!
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