 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: jonathan.wallaceadams
Date: 2017-05-02 18:23
So, everybody knows about Ta and Da as tonguing syllables, Da being a more legato tonguing compared to Ta. I've even see some people recommend a Ha syllable (for puffed notes?) Would Na work as an even more legato syllable than Do? It seems to lightly touch the same place in the mouth as da and ta.
Thanks.
Just an aspiring student.
Buffet Tradition
Mpc.: Hawkins "G", Barrel: Moba, Reeds: Reserve 3.5+
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Author: kdk
Date: 2017-05-02 19:01
I've read this suggestion before, but I have no idea what an "n" would feel like against a reed. When I try to do it, it turns into the equivalent of a soft "th" ("thah"), which causes more imprecision than softness in the release. When I vocalize a sustained "n-n-n-n-n" and then change it to a "d" the only movement I feel is farther back along the sides of my tongue - my tongue tip doesn't move from one to the other.
If you can do it and the results are useful, then it's worthwhile for you. If it has any downside, you'll find out as you use it. In any case, it's only a concept, a way to think of what you're doing.
Karl
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2017-05-02 23:09
Every mouth, embouchure, tongue length, tooth formation etc etc is different for every player.
So you start with the commonly used Taa, Tee, Daa, Dee or whatever and then experiment with subtle variations to find just what work best for you and gives you the degree of staccato that you want.
It's what workds for you that counts.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2017-05-03 02:02
The difference between taa and daa in speaking has to do with whether we vocalise the sound simultaneously with the tongue movement or not. I don't believe that the tongue strikes in a significantly different place on the palate for these two sounds. So how is this supposed to relate to clarinet playing?
I believe that our various articulations are brought about only by the relationship between air and tongue. So on one extreme we have the note beginning with "haa" using the air only, and on the other an explosive "taa" sound with air pressure and rapid tongue release. Using some tongue and some air you can get every gradation between these two extremes.
Or am I missing something?
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2017-05-03 03:06
I'm not sure what your first language is Liquorice, but that may have something to do with it.
As a native English speaker the Taa and Daa definitely result in different portions of the tip of the tongue coming into play on the reed, and hence a different start to the articulation.
At the end of the day it's the auralisation of the sylabyl that affects the start of the sound.
So Taa, Daa and many others provide me with the different shades of articulation.
Your experience may be different.
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Author: brycon
Date: 2017-05-03 05:04
Quote:
As a native English speaker the Taa and Daa definitely result in different portions of the tip of the tongue coming into play on the reed, and hence a different start to the articulation.
I don't ever think of syllables when I play. But I tried out "taa" and "daa" and didn't notice much difference in feel or sound.
The reason why, I think, is that the clarinet sound doesn't result from the tongue striking the reed but rather from coming off of it (when blowing air, of course). "Taa" and "daa," then, should be inverted to "aat" and "aad," with the tongue returning to the reed immediately prior to the next note start for legato and much earlier for "tongue-stopped" staccato.
I don't feel as though the tongue comes away from the reed/front of the mouth any differently when saying "taa" or "daa," which may be what Liquorice is pointing out.
Quote:
I believe that our various articulations are brought about only by the relationship between air and tongue. So on one extreme we have the note beginning with "haa" using the air only, and on the other an explosive "taa" sound with air pressure and rapid tongue release. Using some tongue and some air you can get every gradation between these two extremes.
Another type of articulation, which sort of lies outside the strict air/tongue spectrum is stop-tonguing off to the side of the reed. When I was growing up studying jazz saxophone, my teacher called it "dood'n tonguing" (an onomatopoeia of the sounds produced: "dood" as the regular pitch; "n" as the muted or ghosted pitch). I've since incorporated it into my clarinet playing. You can make a staccato but keep a bit of the pitch sounding afterward, recreating a string pizzicato pretty nicely.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2017-05-03 06:37
Liquorice wrote:
> The difference between taa and daa in speaking has to do with
> whether we vocalise the sound simultaneously with the tongue
> movement or not.
If by vocalizing you include whatever vowel follows the consonant, then both are vocalized (or neither is).
> I don't believe that the tongue strikes in a
> significantly different place on the palate for these two
> sounds.
I agree. The difference between the two is in the amount of pressure the tongue exerts on the hard palette.
The OP's question had to do with "n" instead of "d" as a softer, smoother articulation. "N" *is* vocalized in order to form it - if you hold your tongue tip against the roof of your mouth (call it "d" or "t"), when you turn it into "n-n-n-n-" you can feel your the naso-pharyngial area open up and allow air to flow through your nose. Try holding your nose closed and say "n-n-n-n."
Karl
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Author: kdk
Date: 2017-05-03 06:56
brycon wrote:
> I don't ever think of syllables when I play. But I tried out
> "taa" and "daa" and didn't notice much difference in feel or
> sound.
>
> The reason why, I think, is that the clarinet sound doesn't
> result from the tongue striking the reed but rather from coming
> off of it (when blowing air, of course).
But don't you feel a difference in the way the tongue leaves the reed in an explosive "Ta' or "Ti" from the way it leaves for "Da" or "Di?" You create the difference, as I experience it, by pressing the tongue harder against the reed (or the hard palette in speech) for "Ta" before releasing it. To put it slightly differently, "T" and "D" start at the same place, but "T" presses slightly before it releases. Students who have trouble with noisy articulation often can quiet it by "lightening" their tongue movements, which in my experience means not pressing on the reed as much before and as the reed is released to start a note.
Of course, as has been said, a clean release depends on having the air pressure already started at the reed before the tongue is withdrawn and the reed is released regardless of how the player conceptualizes the motion.
I don't have the time tonight to look up anything written from the point of view of a speech specialist, but I'm certain material is available on the web with a straightforward search. Maybe tomorrow.
Karl
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Author: TomS
Date: 2017-05-03 17:49
Tongue in the "Hee" (as in Hee-Haw) position and syllable "Tee" (or sometimes "Dee", IMHO) ... Our Principal Clarinet in the local Symphony plays like a "bat out of Hell" (Robert Spring student) and recommends the "Hee" tongue position and the "Tee" articulation syllable ...
Tom
Post Edited (2017-05-03 21:54)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2017-05-03 21:03
TomS wrote:
> Our Principle Clarinet in the
> local Symphony plays like a "bat out of Hell" (Robert Spring
> student) and recommends the "Hee" tongue position and the "Tee"
> articulation syllable ...
>
Because it works for him.
Karl
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Author: TomS
Date: 2017-05-03 21:51
Correct. Well, it actually works for "her" ... !! Arkansas Symphony have had all female principal and 2nd clarinets since about 1990 ...
Tom
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Author: kdk
Date: 2017-05-03 22:02
See that? The first time in a while I've used a generic "him" instead of gumming the sentence up with "him or her" or "him/her" or some such pan gender expression, it comes up wrong! Go figure.
Writing used to be simpler.
Karl
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Author: TomS
Date: 2017-05-03 22:20
These ladies are fantastic musicians ... but we do have male clarinetists on 3rd/bass/E-flat/sax/etc. ... So we get some crumbs ...
Now, in other orchestras sprinkled about Arkansas, I am not sure.
I've lost touch with all the information/gossip since I was "RUNNOFT" back in 2006. And my jobs and family have consumed most of my time ... music takes a lot of dedication to make it "professional" quality ... and I struggle with just part time "semi-professional" ...
Tom
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Author: brycon
Date: 2017-05-04 05:15
Quote:
But don't you feel a difference in the way the tongue leaves the reed in an explosive "Ta' or "Ti" from the way it leaves for "Da" or "Di?" You create the difference, as I experience it, by pressing the tongue harder against the reed (or the hard palette in speech) for "Ta" before releasing it. To put it slightly differently, "T" and "D" start at the same place, but "T" presses slightly before it releases. Students who have trouble with noisy articulation often can quiet it by "lightening" their tongue movements, which in my experience means not pressing on the reed as much before and as the reed is released to start a note.
Yeah, when I say "taa" and "daa" I can feel a slight difference. When I play the clarinet, though, they feel much closer (and more importantly, sound more or less the same). But I have noticed that students' articulation will change greatly when messing around with syllables--but perhaps it has more to do with what their air's doing.
At any rate, I still think all the syllables should be reversed; i.e. the tongue should leave the reed on the downbeat not strike it. So arguing "taa" vs "tee" seems a bit of a moot point.
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Author: SarahC
Date: 2017-05-05 00:14
I use a "lah" syllable sometimes. At least that is what it feels like in my mouth
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2017-05-05 03:55
Re Bryan's above post..
The tongue does leave the reed on the downbeat.
When using the Taa Daa or similar syllable the tongue is momentarily preplaced on the reed.
The Taa etc occurs exactly when the tongue is "released" from it's resting position.
Same applies to lah, a softer less explosive syllable.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2017-05-05 06:11
Caroline Smale wrote:
> The Taa etc occurs exactly when the tongue is "released" from
> it's resting position.
Well, the issue is whether the tongue is truly resting, or exerting some level of force (pressure) to hold the reed still while air presses up against it.
The release of the reed, in my intuitive understanding of all of this, implies that the reed has been held while an air column tries to move past the reed, which must require some positive muscular engagement, however small. So, when the tongue leaves the reed, it is either at that point relaxing or it is deliberately being acted on by whatever muscle opposes pressing against the reed - I assume both, just as the opposing muscles must do in any movement.
The difference, as I sense it when I concentrate on it, between spoken "da" and "ta" is in the amount of pressure - force - that the tongue exerts against the roof of the mouth just before it leaves and allows vocalized air to flow. Using images of those feelings to articulate a reed, there is, again in the sensations I think I feel, more initial pressure holding the reed still when an explosive release is formed ("Ta") than when a softer release is used ("Da"). I would say that a tongue that is completely at rest during the time the reed isn't vibrating is, by its passivity, unable to do anything to affect the reed and you would simply get a breath attack.
This is almost certainly overthinking the whole process by several degrees. We tend to do all of this on the clarinet the same way we learn to do it in speech - by listening and subliminally imitating what we hear. When we teach, most of us, I suspect, simply tell our students to make the articulation light - to "tongue as lightly as possible."
The original question had to do with using an image that is, I suspect, fundamentally impossible to simulate authentically on a reed because the vocal component of "n" (the nasopharynx has to open to let air into the nasal passages) is the main difference between "na-na-na" and "da-da-da" (or substitute an "i" vowel for the "a" if you prefer). Thus my comment that I personally can't imagine how "na" feels, but that if the OP can (he's working with a mental image, not a real consonant), and the result is what he wants, then it works for him.
Most of the rest of this analysis is far more esoteric than most players want or need to think about and some of it is beyond voluntary control.
Karl
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2017-05-06 19:42
The problem isn't 'overthinking', in my view; in fact you need to think MORE in order to disentangle yourself from the illusion that the production of consonants in speech is sufficiently analogous to tongue action in clarinet playing.
Liquorice had most of it right when he said "The difference between taa and daa in speaking has to do with whether we vocalise the sound SIMULTANEOUSLY with the tongue movement or not," and you can hear the slight preparatory sibilance in the taa that is missing in the daa because we are already vocalising. But, given that we don't vocalise AT ALL when we play the clarinet, what he then says is even more suggestive: "So how is this supposed to relate to clarinet playing?"
In exploring the various pictures we may make of how articulation works here I deliberately used consonants hardly at all. After all, we want to establish a direct intuitive connection between tongue action and musical result on the clarinet – just the sort of connection we have in speech between tongue action and the words of the language. As Karl points out in the case of 'n', there are all sorts of OTHER variables present in speech that simply don't operate on the clarinet.
The end result of 'sufficient' thinking is to free yourself from an unhelpful metaphor.
Tony
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