 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: jeffyx
Date: 2017-04-29 10:40
My private teacher encourages me to get an R13 because most of the people in my area ALL use buffet instruments in all state bands and orchestras. However, I simply cannot afford this luxury.
I found this forum last week and I've been binge reading some of the discussions and I wanted to share dilemma. I wanted to ask "why do people like the r13?" I think there are plenty of competent instruments like the CSVR that are much more affordable and consistent.
I'm dumbfounded. I've heard bad things about the r13. People are saying they are inconstant, have bad pads, terrible quality control but people still think it's the professional standard?
Do you think it's really worth to get my teacher to hand pick an r13 for $4000ish? She's really pushing me telling me that judges keep in mind what instrument you play and brands like yamaha don't have the "buffet sound"?
I do want to note that I might minor in music once I go to college or something similar to that so it might be worth to get an r13 for the long run?
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Author: clarinetist04
Date: 2017-04-29 11:19
If you can't afford it, then you can't afford it! At the level you're at, how many auditions do you go to that don't have a screen? And, thus, ow would a judge know what instrument you have? Finally, there's lots of all-state judges on this forum from a couple of states who can certainly chime in, but the differentiation between players at the high school level is not as razor thin as at the professional level. Normally I say, "Talk to your teacher," but in this case, perhaps it is just finding the balance between wishful thinking and reality.
Don't invest that kind of money to minor in college. If you're going to go on and major in music, perhaps we should have a different conversation, but an R13 is not a requirement to do a minor. I speak from experience.
Hopefully some of the teachers and judges will chime in for you on how to deal with your situation.
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2017-04-29 11:50
If you check out the established resellers who offer hand-picked Buffets, I think you'll have your answer: The R13 is variable from instrument to instrument in terms of timbre and blowing resistance. Chances are, one can be found for you that very precisely matches your personal preferences in these areas. This is absolutely not the case with Yamaha--you're not going to find much variability at all. If you try two or three YCL-650s, for example, and none work for you, it's time to consider a different model.
Is it worth it? I'd hesitate to make such an investment on the basis of pursuing a minor in Music. Any good Yamaha or French-built Leblanc, Selmer, or Couesnon Monopole should more than get you by.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2017-04-29 12:56
Dear Jeff,
I don't know why there is a stigma about buying second-hand clarinets. Some old R-13s are a damn-sight better than the ones they make now. If a second-hand instrument is in good repair or you get it overhauled well, it can be better than a new one for less than a third the price.
PS. We don't use R13s here in France. The most popular Buffets here are the Prestige and the RC.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: ruben
Date: 2017-04-29 12:57
Dear Jeff,
I don't know why there is a stigma about buying second-hand clarinets. Some old R-13s are a damn-sight better than the ones they make now. If a second-hand instrument is in good repair or you get it overhauled well, it can be better than a new one for less than a third the price.
PS. We don't use R13s here in France. The most popular Buffets here are the Prestige and the RC.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Ed
Date: 2017-04-29 15:11
Play what works for you. Don't worry about what the brand is. The clarinet world is growing much more open to different instruments. People will judge your playing, not the label. (if that is an issue, black electrical tape can solve that)
R13s get a lot of bashing, but they are fine instruments and there is a reason it is so widely used, especially in the US. You can often find great bargains on used instruments that are great players.
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2017-04-29 16:57
Even a number of years ago, all my instructors were of the mindset that it was R13 or nothing. They'd make me order in a bunch of R13s to test. Then - in blind tests, my old Leblanc beat out the entire line of R13's every time. Each time, my instructor would just blink at me incredulously, then ask to try my Leblanc. Each time, the professor would state something to the effect of, "That's not a stock Leblanc (which it was)! That plays better than most R13s!"
This happened several times in my college years and really made me sour on the "group think" approach of clarinet study. It's why I'm so skeptical of gear now and tend to avoid the various trends and rituals...and instead just find what works for me - to get the sound that I want.
Be prepared, though - if you're going to buck the trend, you might find that you're constantly having to prove yourself...which isn't necessarily a bad thing.
[EDIT:] I'm sure that your instructor only wants the best for you, and sees the R13 as being the solution to get you there...I know that was the case with my instructors. You can respect that, thank them for it, and yet still choose a different path.
;^)>>>
Fuzzy
Post Edited (2017-04-29 17:03)
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2017-04-29 18:35
Fuzzy mentioned group think, and the "R-13 or nothing" mindset was around when I was in high school in the early 70s. I knew a few people then who played pro Selmers (back when it was common for local music stores to stock them), but there was a definite pro-R-13 bias. When I was in college in the mid 70s, I don't recall anyone playing a Selmer or Leblanc. Yamahas were around, but few people took them seriously.
The price of the R-13 has risen over the years faster than the rate of inflation.
I recall that the MSRP for an R-13 in 1971 was about $450. In today's dollars, that would be about $2,709. It was common to be able to buy them at a small discount, and I recall that my parents paid about $370. In today's dollars, that would be about $2,227. It's also important to remember that the cost of college tuition has risen faster than the rate of inflation.
If you want to put your teacher on the spot--if you do, please be very
respectful!--you could ask her to explain the Chicago Symphony clarinet section. Principal player Steven Williamson uses a Selmer Signature with Vandoren reeds. Assistant principal John Bruce Yeh plays a Yamaha SEV, also with Vandoren reeds. Gregory Smith plays a Buffet (not sure about his reeds). Bass clarinet J. Lawrie Bloom also uses a Buffet, but with D'Addario reeds. Somehow (gasp!) these four excellent musicians sound great together, even though they aren't all playing Buffets!
Please don't let your teacher pressure you into spending more than you can afford. It isn't worth it! What kind of clarinet are you currently using?
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Author: Shaun L
Date: 2017-04-29 19:28
Hey, Jeff. I'd really urge you to consider all of your options equally without the bias your private lesson instructor is pushing on you.
Buffet certainly does make good sounding instruments most of the time, some of the time. The problems are the other 90% of the work they do. Getting a brand new R13 that doesn't need work, plays in tune, without unevenness somewhere in the scale is hitting the lottery. On top of that, they really are charging astronomically more than the instruments would be worth even if they came out of the factory hitting every mark as consistently as Yamaha. A CSVR will cost you just over $3000 where an R13 will cost you $4000 and any work needed to make it an actual playing instrument suitable for the professional world.
Please consider other options too! I play a Backun Protege that I sold my R13 for. A little necessary backstory here, I was very lucky with my Buffet. It played better than any other R13 I've played but one. A late 60's R13 that had recently been completely overhauled and tuned. Probably about a $1000 job. I paid about $2600 for my Protege and I'll be repadding it soon to swap the current pads out for Valentino master series. Fortunately, it came to me so well made that I've got very little mechanical work to do to it.
My advice to you is this: Consider a used instrument and give yourself plenty of room to pay for at least a repad if not an overhaul. If you don't find a deal that looks promising, buy a new horn from a company that you know you wont run the risk of needing to put additional work into the horn. Stay inside your $3000. If you're not seeking becoming a music major or otherwise planning to pursue music as a career it's probably not worth it.
Also, if you buy a horn and go to your next lesson with something that isn't a Buffet and your teacher gives you **** for it, find a different teacher. Teachers that want to control anything about what you're playing on outside of suggesting something to try for a tangible reason (reed & mouthpiece experimentation) aren't going as far as they should to make YOU a better player. They're likely also doing the same thing in other parts of their instruction. The best teachers are the ones that change things to make you the best you can be and wouldn't let brand affiliation chance interfering with that.
Apologies for the rant but as an aspiring clarinet professor, instructors pushing specific instruments or mouthpieces or anything else are my largest pet peeve in the musical world.
Backun Protege Coco/Gold
Selmer S10A
D'Addario X0
MoBa barrel
Buffet 1193 C
Vandoren B44
Post Edited (2017-04-29 19:30)
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Author: James S
Date: 2017-04-29 22:21
I think we ought to start with the bare reality: the "Buffet sound" is a marketing hook. If a clarinet has a narrow mid-bore with substantial tapers on each end, it will sound R13-y. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. This "coveted sound" can be pulled off by a large number of models from other makers, including (but not limited to) The Uebel Advantage/Preference models, Gao's "Royal" Classical model, the RZ Bohema and Bohema * models, Yamaha's SEV, SEVR, and CSVR models, and Rossi's American Bore. Not all of those may be in your budget, but there are a lot out there. I'm sure there are more, but I'm only rattling off the models I have personally played and found comparable to my hand-selected and modified R13 that I used for a number of years.
Regardless of your college goals, get a clarinet that plays well. Maybe I was fortunate, but my college instructor didn't care what his students played on. If your instructor is overly concerned about what your clarinet has stamped on it versus how you sound on it, she's doing you a profound disservice.
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Author: RKing
Date: 2017-04-29 23:55
Does your teacher know you cannot afford an R-13? Please don't let anyone pressure you into buying something you cannot afford - and are not sure you want.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2017-04-30 00:46
jeffyx wrote:
> My private teacher encourages me to get an R13 because most of
> the people in my area ALL use buffet instruments in all state
> bands and orchestras.
I'm going to leave the R-13 bashing to others. There are good ones, merely acceptable ones and even bad ones.
This first sentence is internally silly. I am certain that there are some students who have reached the all-sate level who play on other instruments than Buffet R-13. And if ALL of these make the state level on other instruments, then it isn't the instrument that is leading to their success.
I don't know what state you're in, but in Pennsylvania no one asks what clarinet you play when you apply to audition, and the judges (where there are auditions) listen with their backs to the players so they can't see what instruments are coming in the door. You are better off with any top-level instrument than with an entry-level clarinet of any brand.
> I wanted to
> ask "why do people like the r13?"
> I'm dumbfounded. I've heard bad things about the r13. People
> are saying they are inconstant, have bad pads, terrible quality
> control but people still think it's the professional standard?
>
People who like R-13s won't often be the ones who are posting about it on a forum like this. They have no axe to grind. It's far more likely that postings will come from players who have a complaint and who prefer something else (and want to convince others). This is a matter of preference and people are entitled to their preferences. Preferences can't be right or wrong. They're personal. That so many R-13s are still sold and used shows that there are many players who like them - they just aren't as vocal about it.
> Do you think it's really worth to get my teacher to hand pick
> an r13 for $4000ish? She's really pushing me telling me that
> judges keep in mind what instrument you play and brands like
> yamaha don't have the "buffet sound"?
>
I think this is nonsensical hyperbole, but this is an age of hyperbole, so it isn't surprising. As to worth, that's really unanswerable.
> I do want to note that I might minor in music once I go to
> college or something similar to that so it might be worth to
> get an r13 for the long run?
You're too young, frankly, to be so much concerned about "the long run" in considering clarinet equipment. In the medium range much can happen that would change your decision about what clarinet to play. Your concept could change, New clarinets could come along that you like better. Your needs as a clarinetist might change (what kind of music style you want to play and what type of ensemble you want to play it in). If you study clarinet in college, whether as a minor or as a performance major, your clarinet teacher at the college may have a preference or he may find a range of good alternatives acceptable. IMO you should take care of your current needs. Clarinet purchases are not life-long commitments.
So, you shouldn't buy R-13 because you won't get into state band without one (you might not get that far with one, either) or becauise you want to please a college teacher you haven't even met yet. And, if you find an R-13 you like, you shouldn't *not* buy it because some other players prefer Yamahas or Leblancs or Ridenours or something else.
And BTW I second Ruben's suggestion that a used R-13 is a more-than-acceptable solution. A good used high quality clarinet is more likely to have been maintained and its idiosyncrasies corrected by its past owners. You have to be selective, as you do when choosing a new one, but the price will be considerably lower with less chance of a surprise defect in tuning or response that turns out to be irreparable.
Karl
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-04-30 01:50
I'll take a Yamaha CSVR any day for any R13 new or used. I sold ALL of my Buffets and I had several sets going back to the 1960's.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: ClarinetRobt
Date: 2017-04-30 03:15
I'm with Bob. I have a Prestige Buffet, hand selected. Fantastic instrument.
But if I was buying new right now, I'd get the CSVR. Hands down.
R13s are like new BMWs. Certainly no longer the ultimate driving machines. The CSVR is more like a Lexus. Reliable and consistent from day one. (Ironic Yamaha help engineer the engine sound in the new Lexus RC & LC500).
My All-Stater this year in Texas played on a ridenour. Beautiful sound. And no one knew the difference. (Seriously doubt anyone could tell the brand of instrument.)
~Robt L Schwebel
Mthpc: Behn Vintage
Lig: Ishimori, Behn Delrin
Reed: Legere French Cut 3.75/4, Behn Brio 4
Horns: Uebel Superior (Bb,A), Ridenour Lyrique, Buffet R13 (Eb)
Post Edited (2017-04-30 04:19)
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Author: TomS
Date: 2017-04-30 22:34
Just aquired a new R13/Greenline ... and I like it. Surprised me. Not my first R13, but IMHO, the best.
If you really think you must have an R13, best idea is to find a used one ... ideally from a professional that is looking to upgrade or from a highly reputable dealer. Be sure that someone that REALLY knows the R13 clarinet checks it out. You could probably find one for maybe $2500+repairs ... about the price of a store demo Yamaha CSVR. You should try the Yamaha.
IMHO, there are better playing clarinets on the market, but the R13 is a industry standard and doesn't "have any flies on it" ... if you know what I mean. I think the greeline clarinets are more consistent ... I played 3 and they were pretty close.
In front of me, I have a 1980s vintage Selmer Signet Special, with a cracked and rebuilt middle tendon. I bought it cheaply from a lady that played it in 1st All-State Band here in central Arkansas. She bought the instrument, unaware that the center joint was destroyed at one time. The clarinet came with a well worn Selmer C85 MP. Just goes to show you that hard practice and talent can overcome equipment that is less than professional ... But it's always nice to have the best.
Speaking of best, if not the CSVR, check out the Ridenour Lyrique Libertas. You might take some flack on these from your colleges, until they actually try one ...
Tom
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Author: Geronimo
Date: 2017-05-01 18:15
Jeff,
Thought I would throw in my opinion, some of the history might be a little off. If anyone wants to correct me please do so.
When I was in high school, all of my teachers recommended buffet as the "golden standard." When I said I wanted to audition as a performance major, Buffet was pretty much the only option. I was not made aware of Selmer, Leblanc, Yamaha, or Backun much at all so I have a general sense of what you are going through.
I think it is important to consider the origin of the Buffet R13. I want to say that the R13 model came around in the 50s and it was very popular among teachers and performers. At this time the R13 was Buffet's only top professional clarinet. Since it was popular with the current teachers and performers, it became popular with their students and so on and so fourth.
If you look at the market now, several things have changed. Buffet now has new top models that replace the R13 on the priority list: prestige models, Tosca, Divine. As such the common R13 is not being made with the best wood (put aside for the new top models) or the best technicians. I don't think it is realistic to compare the modern R13 to the original for those reasons. Additionally, the old R13s are quite different from what you will try in stores today. They were much freer in sound and were very flexible "behind the wheel".
(end of history lesson)
When talking about all-state yes I do remember a sea of buffet clarinets there, E11-Tosca. However I agree with the above comments, good judges judge the performance, not what clarinet you play on. I think that notion is ridiculous. You can argue there is a "buffet sound" however, it still sounds like a clarinet. Yamaha/Selmer/whoever else also make instruments that sound like clarinets, so don't let that argument hold you back.
And as for college, I did make it into a great university's clarinet performance studio on my Buffets. I stayed on that track for two years and am now a music education major (different longer story). However, what I would like to point out is that the buffet mindset pretty much evaporated for me. Many of my colleagues started on buffets, but I cannot think of a single person who upgraded and stayed on buffet. Many are on Selmer Signatures or Yamaha CSVRs and sound phenomenal. They were not sponsored to purchase these instruments. They all went around trying clarinets from different companies and eventually found what they were looking for elsewhere.
That's not to say Buffets are bad. I am still using my set, and I have a friend who has a great Tosca. But if I were financially capable of getting a new set, it would not be a Buffet.
Do not buy an instrument because you were pressured into it. I also wouldn't get an instrument if its outside of your budget. I think the Yamaha CSVR is probably the best performing instrument at the cost but if you are going to minor in music it might not be necessary, that is for you to decide. I do know people who buy a old used buffet R13 on ebay or in a shop and pay the money to have it completely restored. Much cheaper. I have a friend from high school who did and was recently doing his college auditions got accepted into some great schools.
Sorry for the long post but I hope at least some of it was useful. Good luck at all-state!
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-05-01 19:09
Some of the greats are or were playing on Yamaha's. David Shifrin, Lorin Kitt, John Yeh, just to name a few.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2017-05-02 06:28)
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Author: gwie
Date: 2017-05-02 02:25
I've even had shops out here trying to pitch the Buffet E-13 to my students for MORE than a Yamaha CSVR, and I've basically laughed in their faces. Seriously, the brand bias is so strong sometimes it's unbelievable.
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Author: eac
Date: 2017-05-02 15:36
If the issue is "the buffet sound", would looking at mouthpiece/reed/embouchure changes address the issue of tone? unless this is really an issue of "the buffet image" in your teacher's mind. how does your current instrument sound when played by an experienced player?
Liz Leckey
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Author: tkillian
Date: 2017-05-03 22:38
I have a 1958, R13 with a brand new moenig barrel. Imo it sounds amazing. It has new leather pads and been adjusted. Yo ME It's AMAZING and Warmer AND darker than any Yamaha I've heard. That's Just Opinion AND ymmv. I'm ending up having to sell it for financial reasons but I can tell you. ...I paid very little. ...do they are out there...new ones are expensive and vary from what I understand. You have to play them where I think the Yamahas are more consistent.
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Author: TomS
Date: 2017-05-06 01:06
How old is too old? And, which type of wood is most negatively affected by age?
Just wonder if Rosewood has a shorter "ping" life than Blackwood ...?
Not being sarcastic, but this is interesting to me ... what happens to wood to make it lose it's musical luster? This topic has been around and around ...
I will say that when I'd get a new R13 or whatever, I'd loan it to my colleagues to try ... and I often got a comment like: "wow! I like the compactness to the sound ... my Buffet played like this when it was new ..." So is it just air-tightness and snappy mechanics that they liked, or was the newer wood a factor? Probably both ... and that's why getting a new barrel may help the sound, since it get's the most abuse and most likely to change dimensionally or chemically. '
Tom
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-05-07 08:46
Buffet is still living on the past. Buffet is in trouble. Every year or 2 Yamaha comes out with a mind blowing amazing horn.
Buffet comes out with horn such as the very expensive Divine costing $20,000 for a set and it is now discontinued! It is DEAD. Gone! People hated it.
They change the bores of the R13's, but the old bores on the old R13's were better so they coll the old horns some other name and charge $5000
Then you pay $5000 for the old R13 and the pads leak and you have to have them tuned. Another $1000. You can buy a set of Yamaha's which play great and you will have plenty of money left for a great summer vacation!
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: ruben
Date: 2017-05-07 12:53
Dear Bob,
I have a question for you: how does Yamaha do it? Do they invest more money in research and development? Are they more conscientious when it comes to craftmanship and quality control? In the past, they were said to basically copy: Buffet for their clarinets, Heckel for their bassoons. I imagine they have moved beyond this stage now. Two eminent clarinets work with them (among others): Jérôme Vosin here in France and Joachim Valdepenas of the Toronto Symphony (originally from your part of the world. -born in Tijuana, I seem to remember). I don't know whether they participate in the design of new instruments and are testers.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: TomS
Date: 2017-05-07 17:10
Yamaha is a LARGE company, with technologies spanning from motorcycles to pianos. I am sure that some of this get's "cross-pollinated" from time to time ... massive infrastructure of skill, capabilities and knowledge.
.
I ran the shop for a really wonderful "Stereo" store for a few years. My best years, I must say. We loved Yamaha. We owned Yamaha. When I had an elusive technical issue, I could call Yamaha and get someone to walk me through the circuit and always with success. We would get service manuals in the shop for weeks before the product was available. We would attend intensive service schools (at Yamaha's expense) before the product even hit the shelves!
In other words, Yamaha has their "S-word" together!
My little Yamaha 650 has better plating, better looking keys, cleaner tone-holes and a smoother bore, nicer case than my new R13/Greenline. Only downside for me it that it is made of wood ... and I wanted something with higher altissimo pitch (I use slightly soft setup, so pitch issues), and for outdoor use. But, the urge is strong to go ahead and "pull the trigger" on a CSVR ... I wish I could get them in hard rubber or compacted moon-dust.
Tom
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Author: Cath
Date: 2017-05-08 08:15
I'm in the UK, and haven't played for 40 years , until I recently started playing again. I have a pair of old Boosey and Hawkes Imperial 926 , and they were bought fir me by my parents , second hand, in 1975 . So , when I started paying again, I thought I ought perhaps to look into what was deemed to be a good professional standard instrument other than mine . I tried a new R13 in the local music store ,along with a top of the range Yamaha . Neither of them were a patch on my 926 s in tone ( I like the warm, velvety type of sound) . So, as someone else said, look into good 2nd hand instruments , get it it/ them serviced and you could be very suprised and have more money in your pocket too ! And if you see a 926 or even better 10:10 B&H for sale , check it out . I saw a 926 for sale recently for just £500.00 ! Bargain! Mine are fantastic , even at around 60 years old . I'm told that the quality of the wood used then, was much better than today , making the beautiful sound that they are capable of ...Good luck . Play what YOU like after all, not what others tell you to play ..
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