 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: crysania
Date: 2017-03-28 22:24
As I'm getting used to my new Eb Clarinet (old 1930s-ish Guy Humphrey stencil horn) I'm really enjoying it. But the one issue I have with it is that the throat tones are VERY sharp. We're talking nearly a quarter tone. I can lip them down into some semblance of pitch. But is there anything that might correct this further? The barrel is tiny (38mm) but how much would a longer barrel throw off the rest of the horn?
My Bb clarinet was set up a zillion years ago by someone more in the know than me and so I don't know how such things affect the instrument outside of "longer barrel = lower tone."
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2017-03-28 23:39
A shorter barrel will always affect the throat notes more than the rest of the instrument. Throat notes can also be brought down in pitch by carefully applying a thin layer of tape to the upper part of the tone hole's diameter. You can experiment with how much tape to use (you can layer it for more flattening) and which hole or holes have the best result. Eb clarinet tone holes are small, so a little would go a long way if it's applied to the right hole.
I'm curious, though - was this instrument sitting in a closet somewhere or has it been in use? If it's been sitting, it might need some time to rehydrate. If it has been played and you know who was using it, you might ask if this was a problem for that player. He (she) may have been using a different mouthpiece and not had the pitch problem you're describing. Are you using your mouthpiece or one that came with the instrument?
An instrument that old is not likely to have a serious problem that someone else hasn't already had to deal with. Before doing anything physically to the clarinet, I think I'd see what can be done with a barrel or a different mouthpiece first.
Karl
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-03-29 00:18
If you can, try a 40mm or 41mm barrel to see if that helps - it will have more effect on the pitch of the throat notes compared to the right hand notes.
Another thing you can do if you can't get a barrel is have someone make tuning rings that fit between the top tenon and the barrel or between the mouthpiece tenon and the top barrel socket if you prefer. Have them make three of them - a 0.5mm, 1mm and 1.5mm as you can use them on their own or in combination. Have them made with either the same inside diameter as the bore at the top tenon or just slightly wider.
If the throat notes are still too sharp, then they can be flattened by having the toneholes waxed in to flatten them - wax is easy to adjust, add to or remove, so isn't going to do any permanent damage your clarinet.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: crysania
Date: 2017-03-29 00:40
This was an instrument off of eBay. No clue about its history. I wish I knew!
The first thing I did with the instrument was take it to a professional and get it completely overhauled (which included completely rehydrating the instrument). So I can't imagine it's anything to do with hydration.
Unfortunately since I don't know the history I'm running blind with it! The instrument did not come with a mouthpiece so I've tried two (a Vandoren B45 and my J&D Hite, which was what I used to always play on). Both had the same problem with the throat tones being extremely sharp.
I'm wondering if a different barrel might help. I'm really not sure what all the specs on barrels mean for intonation (different tapers, etc.)! And I CAN deal with if I have to so I'd rather not spend a LOT on a new barrel. I had been contemplating a Scott barrel as I have one on my Bb and loved what it did to my tone, especially in the throat tones (I can't honestly remember if they were sharp beforehand, but I know the tone is fuller and less stuffy than the original barrel). And I've seen some other ones that seem interesting but aren't terribly expensive. But I'm not sure if getting one a little bit longer would aid in fixing them or not. Is it worth a try?
Or maybe it's something I could check with a professional on? I admit I am the least crafty person on the face of the planet so trying to put tape inside something, especially something so tiny would no doubt end in frustration and tears.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-03-29 01:17
There are several makers offering aftermarket barrels. While ringless barrels are popular, they are at far greater risk of the sockets splitting as all sockets need reinforcing with rings (metal or carbon fibre).
Buffet and Selmer Eb clarinets use different length barrels (as they have different length bodies), so if it's more like a Buffet Eb, then a Buffet barrel or a suitable barrel designed for Buffet Ebs will be compatible.
But experiment with the barrel you have and find the point where it is pulled out where the instrument is in tune with itself. That will give you an idea what length barrel to look for. You could make some cardboard spacers to use as tuning rings to fill in the void left between the socket and tenon to give a truer indication of which barrel length to go for.
But still have a barrel that plays a bit on the sharp side and is in tune when pulled out by around 0.5mm as it's much easier to flatten sharp notes than to sharpen flat ones.
Measure the total length of the main body section (in mm) from tenon tip to tenon tip - my 1962 Buffet R13 Eb measures 338mm (or 13 5/16" in old money) and the original barrel is 42mm.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2017-03-29 01:42
crysania wrote:
> Or maybe it's something I could check with a professional on? I
> admit I am the least crafty person on the face of the planet so
> trying to put tape inside something, especially something so
> tiny would no doubt end in frustration and tears.
A good repair tech can do this - either with tape or, as Chris suggests, wax. It will cost whatever shop time charges are involved.
I guess you could get a fair idea of what a longer barrel would do for the throat pitches by pulling the barrel you have out until they're in tune, then finding out how flat the longer pitches have become. The throat notes will come down the most, the long E/B the least. You won't want to play permanently pulled out more than maybe two mm because the resulting gap between the end of the tenon and the inner shoulder of the barrel socket can add resistance and affect response (that's what the tuning rings Chris mentioned are for), but you'll get an idea of whether the theory will work.
Karl
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2017-03-29 18:31
Since it's an instrument from an online auction, it's possible that you've bought a "marriage." In my experience as a flea market cockroach, dealers will often mix the undamaged sections of more than one instrument in order to sell something without conspicuous cracks, missing tenon rings, etc. -- but if the parts don't come from instruments of the same make and vintage, the clarinet may never play in tune. One way to check: If your clarinet has metal tenon rings, take a close look at them and see if they match all the way up and down.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: crysania
Date: 2017-03-29 18:42
The only tenon rings are only on the barrel and bell. It's an Eb clarinet, so the body is all one piece. So I know that THAT is at least from one instrument! And I suppose that's the important part, really. The rest is replaceable.
The instrument DOES play in tune except for the throat tones. I do have to pull out a bit so it's possible the barrel is too short (and maybe not original to the instrument, I just don't know!).
Post Edited (2017-03-29 18:44)
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Author: ClarinetRobt
Date: 2017-03-29 19:55
FYI...my Fobes Eb Extension (Brad Behn offers one too) helped my throat note intonation of my effer. I realize the extension is by the bell, but I did see a slight improvement. Not sure if you need to head in that direction (they aren't the cheapest product and very specialized), but I just wanted to offer another suggestion that might help a little.
Ideally, I like my throat notes a tad sharp so I can use resonant fingerings when applicable. They of course bring the pitch down a little by default.
~Robt L Schwebel
Mthpc: Behn Vintage
Lig: Ishimori, Behn Delrin
Reed: Legere French Cut 3.75/4, Behn Brio 4
Horns: Uebel Superior (Bb,A), Ridenour Lyrique, Buffet R13 (Eb)
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Author: ruben
Date: 2017-03-30 13:19
Dear Chris P,
Do you use wax rather than blue-tac (it goes by a different name here in France and is a different colour)? I use blue tac-just a sliver, the amount depending on the diameter of the tone-hole or how far I want to bring the pitch down.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2017-03-30 22:48
My advice would be to contact Clark Fobes. He makes wonderful Eb clarinet barrels. Perhaps he can help you find one of the appropriate length.
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
Buffet Bass Clarinets
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-03-30 23:30
Blu-Tack will work, but it can be dislodged easily or accidentally or if it gets wet.
Hard black wax is semi-permanent and can be removed, shaped and built up easily enough. Beeswax is much softer and will be easier to shape with a warm metal rod.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: ClarinettyBetty
Date: 2017-03-31 00:30
My '72 Buffet Eb has extremely sharp throat tones with a regular barrel. I switched to a Fobes (it's actually a 42.5 believe it or not) and the tuning is much better. The fact that it's a BC20 probably has everything to do with that, but still. Try some barrels and see what makes a difference!
-----------------------
Eb: 1972 Buffet BC20
Bb: Selmer Paris Presence
A: Selmer Paris Presence
Bass: 1977 LeBlanc
https://gentrywoodwinds.com
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Author: ClarinetRobt
Date: 2017-03-31 03:48
My Fobes barrel is 42.5 too. I have few issues with intonation once I switched from my stock Buffet barrel.
~Robt L Schwebel
Mthpc: Behn Vintage
Lig: Ishimori, Behn Delrin
Reed: Legere French Cut 3.75/4, Behn Brio 4
Horns: Uebel Superior (Bb,A), Ridenour Lyrique, Buffet R13 (Eb)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-03-31 19:47
I waxed in the open G, throat G# and A toneholes on my 1962 Buffet Eb as they were painfully sharp with both the original 42mm and extra 43mm barrels that came with it.
As these notes aren't used for many other notes (apart from some altissimo fingerings) you're not going to affect the tuning on the rest of the instrument. The G tonehole is closed all the time the left thumb or LH1 is down and throat G# and A are mainly used for those notes (and throat Bb with the speaker key).
To do this I removed the throat G# and A keys and the LH1 ring key. Using a tuner, check the tuning of these notes with their octaves above and below (do this before removing any keys and make a note of the tunings). Plug up the throat A and G# toneholes and tune the open G using your regular fingering (if you put your RH fingers down from open G to Bb). Then once that's done, unplug the throat G# tonehole and tune that note. Then unplug the throat A tonehole and tune that note. Bb (adding the speaker key) should hopefully be in tune, but chances are it might be on the sharp side, so put your right hand fingers down to flatten and add substance to it.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: crysania
Date: 2017-04-04 19:59
Thanks everyone! I played around a little bit with it the last few days and at rehearsal last night. Pulling out seemed to solve at least a good portion of the problem without causing huge issues with the rest of the playing so far. I think the solution is a somewhat longer barrel. Now I just have to try to determine HOW long. The current one is only 38mm, so it's very tiny. So time to measure it when I play to see where it is best. I'm going to guess 40-42 is probably where I'll aim for but I'll play a bit more before deciding.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2017-04-04 21:54
Just don't go too long - leave yourself some room to pull out a little, or you'll have no ability to come up to a band or orchestra that goes unusually sharp. Needing to pull out a millimeter or so isn't a bad thing.
Karl
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Author: crysania
Date: 2017-04-07 17:30
Oh I totally agree Karl. I consistently have to pull out my Bb clarinet a little bit. And I'm ok with that. I'd rather my instrument overall be a little sharp than a little flat. But this is definitely more than a mm or two that I'm pulling out the Eb. I'm going to measure about where sounds good and then shoot for a couple mm below that for length. I'm guessing that a 40 will probably be a good compromise but I'll see!
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