 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: clarii2
Date: 2017-03-18 09:02
has this subject been talked about before? npr had an interview with competition players. one said noone wins a position or competition without using beta blocks. by coincident i had to get on beta blockers for my heart and it REALLY worked for my nervousness playing 2nd clarinet. it never effected my musicianship(expression etc.) i couldn't recommend it more. paul
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2017-03-18 09:36
Soon they'll be doing drug tests on musicians and barring them from playing if they test positive! :-)
B.
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Author: clarii2
Date: 2017-03-18 12:39
thanks GBK. GREAT RESPONSES. SORRY IM NOT VERY GOOD WITH COMPUTERS. PAUL
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2017-03-18 17:10
Having looked at the link, it doesn't seem like this topic was discussed.
Before I do, (and when I do, I'll keep it very PG-13) I take no particular sides in this debate. Some musicians feel they need medications that calm them in order to perform, or perform at their best. Some doctors feel that such class of medicines, which come with their own set of side effects, best be left for, primarily, the treatment of high blood pressure.
Some feel we have these meds, so why aren't we using them to be our best, or simply to be able to make a living as a performer. Others feel that we are overmedicating when other options to achieve calm exist.
But the fact is that one of the common side effects of such meds, especially in men, is in their inability (nod/wink) when on beta blockers..to..
..how shall I say..
....make "little musicians....."
Again..putting food on the table as a performer may trump for many the creation of more mouths to feed in a household where income isn't coming in, because performance is thwarted from inability to remain calm.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2017-03-18 18:07
WhitePlainsDave wrote:
> But the fact is that one of the common side effects of such
> meds, especially in men, is in their inability (nod/wink) when
> on beta blockers..to..
>
> ..how shall I say..
>
> ....make "little musicians....."
>
Is this a side effect of occasional use or regular, continuing dosages? I know that some very prominent symphony players use beta blockers for specific occasions - especially auditions or solo performances.
As someone who simply found another direction for my music energy (teaching and local free-lancing instead of the highly competitive major symphony market) because of the interference of nerves and performance anxiety, I have to confess I've sometimes wondered what I could have done if I had tried this class of medication early in my career. I just didn't know about it back then. It has never for me been the unremarkable program of relatively safe music that has bothered me, but auditions and the occasional really difficult solo passage. For someone using beta blockers for only those extra anxiety-producing occasions, I can't imagine chronic impotence would be a result. But I've never read about this part of the issue before.
Karl
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Author: MichaelW
Date: 2017-03-18 23:50
Beta blockers to some extent are effective against tremor and anxiety. Impotence is listed under "rare side effects" (1 in 10000 to 1 in 1000) so you certainly couldn't rely upon them as sort of contraceptive medication.
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Author: ClarinetRobt
Date: 2017-03-19 03:48
10 years after the first threads. I'm curious if there's been any other breakthroughs or better treatment options than the BB.
After spending an hour reading the original thread, there's a part of me that feels like it's a cop out. But don't get me wrong, I'm a modern American, if I can pop a pill and make my troubles go away...so be it. (j/k)
I appreciate that it's up to the individual whether their condition is debilitating. Knowing myself, if my peers were using BB for auditions/concerts, I'd certainly give it a try to see if it made any difference for myself. Perhaps my peers taking the medication didn't feel any different than I felt...they just articulated their situation better than I could.
~Robt L Schwebel
Mthpc: Behn Vintage
Lig: Ishimori, Behn Delrin
Reed: Legere French Cut 3.75/4, Behn Brio 4
Horns: Uebel Superior (Bb,A), Ridenour Lyrique, Buffet R13 (Eb)
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Author: LCL
Date: 2017-03-19 06:59
I have been taking a beta blocker since the 1970s and here is what the WebMD says about it:
Do not stop taking this medication without consulting your doctor. Some conditions may become worse when you suddenly stop this drug. Some people who have suddenly stopped taking similar drugs have had chest pain, heart attack, and irregular heartbeat. If your doctor decides you should no longer use this drug, he or she may direct you to gradually decrease your dose over 1 to 2 weeks.
When gradually stopping this medication, it is recommended that you temporarily limit physical activity to decrease strain on the heart. Get medical help right away if you develop chest pain/tightness/pressure, chest pain spreading to the jaw/neck/arm, unusual sweating, trouble breathing, or fast/irregular heartbeat.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2017-03-19 07:36
LCL wrote:
> I have been taking a beta blocker since the 1970s and here is
> what the WebMD says about it:
>
But this is in regard to its use as a blood pressure medicine, isn't it? It's use to lower anxiety levels is off-label. As a BP control, it would need to be taken regularly and the advice not to stop without consulting your doctor is understandable.
My understanding of using a beta blocker to reduce performance nervousness has never included taking it on a continuous schedule. I always thought players took it when they needed it for specific events.
Karl
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Author: Roxann
Date: 2017-03-20 01:19
OK...now when I don't come out "tops" during an audition, I'll always be wondering "who does" and "who doesn't" take beta blockers! And, "Gee, I wish I'd used them...would I have done better?"
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Author: brycon
Date: 2017-03-20 03:04
Here in New York, many of the pros in the big orchestras (clarinets, at least) took beta blockers for their auditions--pretty mainstream now. Moreover, several of the woodwind profs at the conservatories either encourage their students to take beta blockers or even give them out. For what it's worth, I take them for auditions; have advanced with and without them (have not advanced with and without them as well). For me, it feels more as though I'm playing at home, in my living room, when I take beta blockers.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2017-03-20 03:49
Unlike PEDs taken by athletes, beta blockers don't enhance a player's general performance ability. That is, the bb isn't going to solve technical and musical problems that you have even when you're relaxed. If you can't play the part at home in your practice room, the bb won't help you play better.
PEDs like anabolic steroids and HGH actually build muscle and give an athlete greater strength and endurance to do things that he or she otherwise couldn't do under any circumstances, whether in actual competition or on a practice field.
So, comparing PED use by athletes to beta blocker use by performers isn't really an apples-to-apples comparison.
Karl
Post Edited (2017-03-20 05:47)
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Author: ClarinetRobt
Date: 2017-03-20 07:07
Karl...I agree. But I can't help feeling if someone (let's say in an audition) is experiencing the same performance anxieties with physical side effects as you, and the competitor has access to the bb you don't, then it comes across as an unfair advantage.
There's seems to be an implication from the original post ten+ years ago, some musicians are obtaining bb from questionable sources. We all know not everyone has access to a health professional. Or can even afford a doctor...much-less finding a doctor to write the script is not a guarantee.
So if I'm buying bb on the street to level the playing field (in my eyes) to keep up with with what my competitors are doing, the whole thing comes across as sordid in nature.
Now if I was actively competing and bb helped me, I'd take it without reservation. I figure - I got to do what I got to do. But I also understand why others would cry foul they didn't have that 'advantage' or the means to get the help. Few things in life are ever fair.
~Robt L Schwebel
Mthpc: Behn Vintage
Lig: Ishimori, Behn Delrin
Reed: Legere French Cut 3.75/4, Behn Brio 4
Horns: Uebel Superior (Bb,A), Ridenour Lyrique, Buffet R13 (Eb)
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2017-03-21 02:23
A couple of years back I had one ex-member of the CBSO say to me that the stress levels in that orchestra were so high that half the players in it were on beta blockers!
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2017-03-21 03:58
Reflecting on all the performances that took place before the advent of these medications makes one wonder if something might be lost by their use. Many great musicians admitted to severe stage fright throughout their performing careers - yet they were great.
Why would someone want to play only as well as they do in their living room, instead marshalling their natural intensity to their peak level of performance? All those changes to breathing, body temperature, alertness, reaction time etc. ought to be beneficial.
Can someone using beta blockers even enter "the zone"?
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Author: ClarinettyBetty
Date: 2017-03-21 04:31
I don't think there is a good reason to cry foul, in my opinion. We all know our own "optimum" and do the best we can to attain it. We don't cry foul if a musician is on antidepressants; those help him get up in the morning and play instead of lying in bed all day. Or someone on heart medication or medicine for cholesterol. Does that mean they have an "advantage" over someone not taking them? No...they're less than optimal, health-wise, and want to be in the "average" zone.
It's gray area, but I agree with the poster above who said it's not like they are taking steroids that actually increase their ability level. Let's say I play relaxed in my office, heart rate is low/normal, no tension, all is well in the world. That's a 1. When I play at church (nice, forgiving audience), I perform at level 3-4. I audition for grad school--I'm nervous, but it's doable. Level 7. I have a recital or orchestra audition, level 9.
A beta blocker might bring you down to a level 6-7 if you're at a 9. It is not a miracle worker that's going to bring you down to a 1.
-----------------------
Eb: 1972 Buffet BC20
Bb: Selmer Paris Presence
A: Selmer Paris Presence
Bass: 1977 LeBlanc
https://gentrywoodwinds.com
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2017-03-21 16:31
Back in the '90s, I was at a performance of a famous soloist. My seat was so close, I probably could have tripped him if I'd wanted to. From that vantage point, his hands were visibly shaking throughout the entire concerto, but we were all riveted by the music being made. It's a memory that never fades, and vividly contrasts to the many other sedated, forgettable, and forgotten performances I've been to.
With emphasis on technical perfection rather than musical expression, this sort of thing is too tempting. But I feel the music suffers from beta blocker culture.
Also: any teacher who hands them out ought to be reported. I've known people who ended up in the ER from taking beta blockers when they didn't really need them, and moreover had an underlying condition they weren't aware of. There is a reason they legally need to be prescribed.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2017-03-21 16:57
MarlboroughMan wrote:
> Back in the '90s, I was at a performance of a famous soloist.
> My seat was so close, I probably could have tripped him if I'd
> wanted to. From that vantage point, his hands were visibly
> shaking throughout the entire concerto
I guess part of the mix for an individual has to include his or her willingness to put up with the very real physical upset that extreme nervousness can cause. Also, the degree of deleterious effect on the player's performance attributable to the nerves would have to factor in. That soloist was, we have to suppose, willing to tolerate the inner turmoil because, again, we have to suppose, he found from experience that he was still able to play at a high level in spite of it.
> It's a memory that never fades, and
> vividly contrasts to the many other sedated, forgettable, and
> forgotten performances I've been to.
I have also been to performances by players I knew to be excellent that were badly marred by serious nerves. There's a point at which exciting, musical playing can't overcome the distraction of obvious technical deficiencies.
>
> With emphasis on technical perfection rather than musical
> expression, this sort of thing is too tempting. But I feel the
> music suffers from beta blocker culture.
>
I've also attended performances of players who I knew routinely used beta blockers who played beautifully - the playing was musically expressive, memorable AND technically flawless. Then, too, I've heard many soulless, boring performances, too many of them to all be attributed to beta blockers or any other pharmaceutical influence. I don't think you can really document a connection between meds and the affective (aesthetic, expressive, emotional) outcome of a performance.
> Also: any teacher who hands them out ought to be reported. I've
> known people who ended up in the ER from taking beta blockers
> when they didn't really need them, and moreover had an
> underlying condition they weren't aware of. There is a reason
> they legally need to be prescribed.
>
I completely agree here - they should be prescribed by a licensed physician, who will know if there's some other factor in an individual profile that makes the beta blocker medically a bad idea.
Karl
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