 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Dabaka11
Date: 2017-02-09 16:00
(As an introduction, please excuse me if my musical terms are not correct. I live and study in Hungary and I'm not completely familiar with and confident in the English terminology.)
So during the past 5 years I have been using a Vandoren M15, which I really liked. Obviously, no mouthpiece lasts forever, consequently around last june, my muthpiece has also started to show the signs of "tiredness". During the summer, I had the chance to try a Black Diamond, which I - maybe a little too quickly - bought. My problem was that, regardless of its good sound, there was a little but annoying hissing present at a few notes. (Low F, F#, G, C', C'#, Eb and the "neck sounds" - A, Bb, etc.) Also in the middle register, G# had it. I tried a lot of different types of reeds, although I stayed with Vandoren.
I was pretty sad, because although this hissing was not audible from the audience (I play in a symphonic orchestra), it quite annoyed me. I went to the shop with one of my clarinetist friends, and tried many mouthpieces. My friend also tried them, and where I had this hissing, he did not have it. Also, I tried a new M15 but it sounded awful (but without hissing).
Finally, I chose a Kückmeier Solist M, which I have today. It has an unbelievably nice sound, but this hissing is still present. Also the mouthpiece seems to be a little flat - mainly around G'' and above.
Currently I use V21 3 reeds. My instrument is an E11 (the older one with silver plating, I believe it's the E12 today).
I am planning to change to a Yamaha CSGIIIL, but before buying a new instrument I would like to be sure to have the best sound and a clear intonation.
What do you think? Should I go back to the shop and try other mouthpieces? Maybe if I practise more with the old M15, the new will sound better. Or should I try the M30?
Or should I just buy the instrument, and use it with the current Solist? I am really afraid that the slightly flat intonation would ruin the new clarinet.
Sorry for the long post and thank you for your answers in advance!
David
Post Edited (2017-02-09 16:02)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2017-02-09 17:59
My first thought is that you're describing reed hiss. It will show up first if the reed is slightly too hard or not balanced on notes that are more resistant on your clarinet. You could probably apply more embouchure pressure to get rid of it if you want to go in that direction, or, if you're sure your reeds are balanced, use a softer reed if you aren't wedded to the resistance of what you're using. You could also learn to ignore the hiss if no one else hears it when you play. Lots of players have noise in their sounds that can only be heard very close up.
I'm not sure why a 5-year-old mouthpiece (your old M15) is deteriorating. What do you mean by "signs of 'tiredness?'" It's always possible that through very heavy use the rails on an old mouthpiece may start to tip inward, or there has been damage to the rails, but 5 years seems too short a life. Is the M15 damaged?
Karl
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-02-10 05:39
Where is the hiss coming from?
From playing the CSG 111, not the CSG111L the Vandoren mouthpieces I don't think are a good match with this horn. You are mixing a brighter sounding French mouthpiece with a German warmer sounding clarinet. Also this clarinet has a huge sound, and the M series Vandoren's may not give you this advantage to this CSG111L clarinet. You are kind of fighting a big sound against the incorrect mouthpiece.
I have the BD Vandoren and the rails are very thick, wide. Too wide. The tip opening is very open. You need something different to match up with the CSG111L. Email me, I can send you some measurements to look for in a mouthpiece that will fit this beautiful horn. savagesax@aol.com
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2017-02-10 08:00
@Bob Bernardo: I was talking to my teacher Michele Zukovsky about that idea a while back, and she seemed to think the opposite was true. French clarinets are darker instruments paired with brighter mouthpieces; German clarinets are brighter instruments paired with darker mouthpieces.
I tried her German mouthpiece/barrel with my Buffet, and while it fit and the intonation was relatively good, the sound was actually too dark, lacking in overtones. That's part of why she switched to German – she liked the mouthpieces but they didn't work tonally with a French instrument.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-02-10 11:21
Could be MAXOPF, I don't know Michele very well other than talking to her a few times and sending several emails. But here's the thing - the CSG111 is a very different animal. Test one out and I think you will agree with what I'm saying. Forget about the name "CSG" just play the horn as I did. Lets call it just another No Name clarinet for now. Lets list it as an amazing horn. I'm sticking to what I said regarding the M series mouthpieces not matching the CSG111 series. I wish I could think of a great mouthpiece to match this clarinet, but it's not a standard Zinner nor an M series Vandoren. I'm thinking something around a 1.08 to 1.12 tip opening average facing, semi deep baffle, but not real deep, maybe would be a great fit. It will probably have to be shorter in length compared to the M series, maybe as short as some of the early 1940's Chedeville's and early Kaspar's, with modified baffles; deeper baffles. Maybe take a shot with a Greg Smith Chedeville?
The barrel I think is only 57 mm's, not sure about the CSG111L, so finding a mouthpiece with the right pitch surely has to come first.
I hope to visit Yamaha again in the middle of March, if I have time I will test out a mess of mouthpieces and see what tunes best and sound the best on it.
The CSG bore is bigger than your German clarinets.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Dabaka11
Date: 2017-02-10 16:11
Thank you for the answers!
The funny part is that the hissing comes from the holes, not the reed. I'm currently using the V21 3 reeds, but I wouldn't go lower, because these are already a little weak for me. I tried stronger ones, tried V12, the traditional ones, I even tried a 56 Rue Lepic, but the result was still the same.
The Kückmeier I use now (Solist M) is really nice, although, as I said, it intonates a little flat, which can be really frustrating. Otherwise I am very satisfied with the tone, my concerns are about the new instrument. I fear that I would ruin its intonation.
My old mouthpiece has now a weak, thin sound, and squeaks a lot, a teacher from a masterclass (Zsolt Szathmári, principal of our national orchestra) recommended that I change to a new one.
EDIT: oh and my instrument is perfctly fine, I had it checked.
Post Edited (2017-02-10 16:20)
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Author: wkleung
Date: 2017-02-10 17:23
I am also producing a hiss on the open G on my newly-acquired Noblet 40, using a 3 reed. Is it a sign my reed is too strong?
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Author: kdk
Date: 2017-02-10 17:34
Maybe. Maybe not. Try a 2-1/2 and see if the hiss goes away.
Hiss can also be caused by an open pad near the hissy note (maybe the one under the A key) that's too close (or too thick). If it's only the one note, undercutting the hole under the A key might improve it, but you should have the advice of a skilled repairer before you consider that.
Karl
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Author: kdk
Date: 2017-02-10 17:52
Dabaka11 wrote:
> Thank you for the answers!
>
> The funny part is that the hissing comes from the holes, not
> the reed.
If it is really coming from the holes, then your instrument is *not* perfectly fine, as you say farther down. Or you're misinterpreting the sound and where it's coming from.
> The Kückmeier I use now (Solist M) is really nice, although,
> as I said, it intonates a little flat, which can be really
> frustrating.
If the whole clarinet is a little flat with this mouthpiece, maybe a slightly shorter barrel will give you the best result.
> Otherwise I am very satisfied with the tone, my
> concerns are about the new instrument. I fear that I would ruin
> its intonation.
>
Well, you won't "ruin" anything. If the intonation is acceptable with a shorter barrel, then all is well. Any experiment is reversible so long as you don't physically alter the clarinet.
> My old mouthpiece has now a weak, thin sound, and squeaks a
> lot, a teacher from a masterclass (Zsolt Szathmári, principal
> of our national orchestra) recommended that I change to a new
> one.
>
Again, this is not a normal result of 5 years' use of a mouthpiece. If this one has changed so much, something has happened to it. You might have someone knowledgeable about mouthpieces look at it, if you have access to such a person in your area. Or, if the one new M15 you tried wasn't good, you could try others.
Worth considering: was the new M15 you tried a Series 13 or a Traditional model? They have different baffle and chamber designs (meant to make the Series 13 version "darker" and a little lower in pitch). Whichever you tried, you might try the other model M15 to see if that improves the sound to your ear. Or try an M13 Lyre or even an M13, both of which are similar to M15 but with slightly less resistant facings.
> EDIT: oh and my instrument is perfectly fine, I had it checked.
This statement always makes me cringe when I read it. Checked by whom? There are skilled repair people and there are people who spend all their time making entry-level instruments work for school band programs who may not know much beyond basic repair on any specific instrument type. Do you know the person who checked your instrument was skilled with clarinet repair?
Karl
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Author: Dabaka11
Date: 2017-02-10 18:34
Thank you for your recommendations!
The shop is one of the best places in Hungary, many of our top musicians (and almost every clarinetist) have their instruments repaired there.
Today I had the chance to try a few other instruments, and with the same reed and mouthpiece they all produced this noise at the same notes.
I will have a new round with mouthpieces, also I'll give a try to softer reeds.
David
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Author: wkleung
Date: 2017-02-10 20:05
Karl: Thanks a lot for your advice. I believe the thumb hole protrudes into the bore. Would that make the undercutting of the tone hole more challenging? I wonder if the hiss has to do with the protrusion.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2017-02-10 21:01
wkleung wrote:
> Karl: Thanks a lot for your advice. I believe the thumb hole
> protrudes into the bore. Would that make the undercutting of
> the tone hole more challenging? I wonder if the hiss has to do
> with the protrusion.
You can't undercut the thumb hole - that's metal and as you say it goes into the opening, although what protrudes into the bore is the register tube, not the thumb hole sleeve. But the small tone hole under the pad cup on the front of the clarinet underneath the throat A key can be causing a hiss if it's only happening to G. Have a technician look at it.
Karl
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