 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: icmusicman
Date: 2017-02-02 03:41
Trying to veer away from chronic embouchure fatigue, I'm trying to become "looser" in the embouchure than I have been. It's been extremely successful, my tone is no where near as pinched, I am not horribly flat (which seems like the opposite of what it should have been) and my sound is much bigger. I've also expanded my "comfortable" playing time (embouchure collapse issues) from 15 minutes to an hour!!!
I want to keep improving this time. However, I still have one MAJOR problem, excessive biting.
This has been an ongoing thing, but I had no idea I was over doing it until I started relaxing my embouchure, so it's nothing new with the embouchure change.
What I notice it does to my sound: It becomes really difficult to play soft and legato. I feel like I have to tongue REALLY HARD for it to respond, if it will respond. And I feel my embouchure tightening up in unison to my biting until the air leaks occur.
Prof. Thompson @ CMU (my instructor) told me to cut a piece of cork and have it on the back teeth to play with a more open cavity, but I find it to be too uncomfortable, let alone I bite through that too...
I've also tried double lipping, but find that to be quite painful after a few measures, as my top teeth can't help but clamp down.
What are some methods that you all use with your students/self in order to break this bad habit. It's easy for me to know when I'm biting and telling myself "stop," but my body definitely does not respond to that and bites even more!
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2017-02-02 06:25
I used to deal with biting/embouchure issues, but it was impossible to loosen up because I played hard reeds, and they were simply too stiff to blow through without biting.
That may or may not be your problem, but based on your description of the reed not responding at soft dynamics, I'm guessing it might be.
You could try switching to a considerably softer reed for a while (a half strength or even full strength softer than what you're used to.) It will sound awful at first because you're used to pinching the reed shut; you'll get that harsh, kazoo-y kind of sound, if any sound at all. But by actively trying to get a good sound on a soft reed, you'll quickly adapt — the softer reed forces you to play with a looser embouchure and jaw, and higher tongue position. Later on you may wish to return to something harder, but you may also realize that the reeds you played originally were just way too hard.
Obviously I've never heard you play so I'm not sure if that is the problem — and, if you do decide to try this, I would run it past your private teacher first.
You can also use thick mouthpiece patches as a gauge of how much you're biting. At one point I would bite through one of those within a few days. Now I can use the same patch for at least a couple of months at a time. I found that setting a goal of "going X days without biting through the patch" helped me.
Post Edited (2017-02-02 06:27)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2017-02-03 00:39
This all sounds a little confusing. I'm not sure how to understand what you mean by "'looser' in the embouchure" in light of your self-described "biting" problem.
The symptoms you describe - "It becomes really difficult to play soft and legato. I feel like I have to tongue REALLY HARD for it to respond, if it will respond. And I feel my embouchure tightening up in unison to my biting until the air leaks occur" - certainly sound like you're pinching the reed off with jaw pressure, but then I don't know what you've succeeded in "relaxing."
What is it that you've relaxed?
To stop biting, you have to stop relying on jaw pressure against the reed to provide support for it to vibrate against. Your bottom teeth essentially act as a fulcrum for the reed to sit on. It needs just to stay put - not try constantly to push up. You cover the teeth with your lip to provide a softer surface than the points of your teeth would provide. You close your lips to direct air into the mouthpiece aperture and keep air from leaking uselessly around the mouthpiece. Your lips also provide some damping effect to control the way the reed vibrates. It's the closing action of the lips that is the only active part of an embouchure.
I'm not sure I understand where Prof. Thompson told you to put the cork - do you mean between the molars (in the back of your mouth) to force your jaw open, or do you mean under your top teeth to raise the roof of your mouth a little? I don't think either of those will stop the biting, though you might try putting a thick rubber patch on top of the mouthpiece beak to both open your mouth and give a softer surface to press against your top teeth. But even if it helps, that's just making things less uncomfortable. It doesn't solve the problem.
>> after a few measures, as my top teeth can't help but clamp down.
It may make a difference in the way you think of this to realize that it isn't your top teeth that are biting down or doing anything in particular. The part of your jaw that moves is the lower part. The muscles pull the bottom teeth upward. The top teeth are passive in all of this. The mouthpiece just gets pushed up against them. So, you have to control the way your lower jaw acts under the mouthpiece and, more specifically, the reed. You need a firm foundation under the reed, but not one that's actively closing as you play.
Your embouchure, consisting of the opening of your jaw and the formation of your lips, needs to create a form into which the mouthpiece fits to provide the needed foundation and to guide the air. Gravity will do a lot of the work of *pulling the mouthpiece down* against the bottom part of your embouchure if you let it. The jaw opening needs to be the right amount to allow the mouthpiece to fit snugly at the point along the reed's length that produces optimal sound and control. Whatever pressure is applied against the reed is provided by the lips - as little as necessary to control the tone by keeping the reed from vibrating wildly.
How stiff are your reeds? How responsive is your mouthpiece? Could you have succeeded too well in "relaxing" your lips and are replacing the small amount of muscular lip pressure that may be needed with pressure from your jaw?
Karl
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-02-03 02:03
The great players with beautiful sounds all seem to have relaxed embouchures. Try playing long tones such as low E, putting a lot of mouthpiece in your mouth almost to the point of when you squeak, then back off. Start off softly, build to forte' then back to soft. maybe 5 to 10 seconds at first then to 40 seconds. Next week add the low F. the following week G.
This allow a lot more of the reed to vibrate so you shouldn't have to bite. It also produces a huge ROUND controlled sound. Do these for 3 minutes and build it up to 10 minutes. If you feel yourself biting - STOP take a break and try it again later. Drop the time to 1 minute if needed. This is a practice that pro's often do everyday as a breathing warm up and to warm up their horns. They often do this for 15 to 30 minutes. Of course time varies. I know that Stanley Hasty at Eastman School of Music was really into making his students play long tones and listening to each 30 second note. He'd ask them what sounded better going from pp to ff or ff down to pp.
Then he'd ask why! Is this becoming a lost practice? I don't know, but we all need to do this to have great sounds. We have to be able to play at FFF without the pitch going flat and without the sound suffering.
Right now I wouldn't use a double lip since you are already hurting, but something to think about in the near future. Forget about your sound right now. Lets develop a decent foundation. Use a mirror as most pros also do. For the low E you want your throat to be open, an "O" sound. This will change as you get into the really high register, but for now work on that "O" sound with as much mouthpiece as you can get away with until you squeak. Say "O" before you put the mouthpiece in your mouth. This is a start only. It may take a year or more to break this habit, but maybe just a few months.
I agree about softer reeds. As a double lip player I used 4 1/2 strength reeds, but I've cut back to 3 1/2 about 25 years ago.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2017-02-03 03:42
icmusician,
It would help if we knew exactly what set up you are trying to play. Some set-ups just aren't right for some players. What model clarinet are you using, with what mouthpiece and facing, and what reed brand and strength? Are you using the barrel that came with the instrument or an after market one? Are you trying to sound a certain way? Can you describe your ideal sound? Dark and covered? Neutral? Bright with a ring? Bright and dark at the same time? All these conceptual goals matter and contribute markedly to your actual tone production and the effort it takes for you to play.
Post Edited (2017-02-03 06:42)
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Author: maiohmai
Date: 2017-02-03 20:02
See below
On the road to a non-collapsing embouchure!
Post Edited (2017-02-03 20:12)
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Author: icmusicman
Date: 2017-02-03 20:08
I apologize, "maiohmai" is me.
I had made the account since I forgot all my credentials originally...
Sorry if I cause any confusion.
MODS: If there's a way to delete "maiohmai", lets keep it to just one account. My apologies again.
I'll repost what I had said on the account here.
Wow, thank you all much for your responses. I'll reply to you each individually.
But before I do here is my setup at this time
R13 Bb/R13 GL A
M13 Lyre Mouthpiece (no refacing or touch up, just straight out of the box)
Rovner Versa Ligature
Chadash 66mm Barrel
V12 3.5 Reeds
Maxopf: I have tried coming down to a softer reed, but eventually the same "pinching" tendency occurs. I have tried a thicker mouthpiece cushion, but was very uncomfortable with how distance there was between my top teeth and mouthpiece. I'm currently playing on a very thin clear patch. Perhaps, I should reconsider the thicker ones and using the "X-days" concept...
KDK: I think what I mean by looser is to not "force" my corners to be firm and inward and to not force my chin to be pointed, rather achieve both of these things in the most relaxed way possible. This has upped my playing time, simply because I was just trying too hard and the muscles became more fatigued faster.
I definitely feel like I'm understanding the bottom teeth acting as a fulcrum a lot more, since I don't bite through the skin of my bottom lip AT ALL anymore, so that's good. As far as active lips go, once i begin to bite, I feel like my air has no place to go but out the corners of my lips. I feel as if I can't control them and they no longer seal around the mouthpiece.
Prof. Thompson suggested to place the cork on the molars, to keep the oral cavity opened.
I really liked how you explained the "top teeth vs. bottom teeth" aspect. That is extremely insightful. Perhaps I myself am pushing the clarinet up against my teeth a little too much, making it feel like I'm clamping down from the top.
As far as reeds go, I currently play on 3.5 V12's on an M13 lyre, the 3's are just too darn soft... But perhaps my biting issue is making them feel that way..?
Bob:I actually studied with someone who was a student of Stanley in my undergrad, Maurita Murphy Mead, who also drilled long tones! I really like the sound of your long tone exercise though, I'll have to try it with the "more mouthpiece" idea.
Seabreeze: I feel silly for not putting my set up in the first post, I have it at the top of this post here! I was originally playing on a M30 Lyre, Vandoren 3.5 blue box and an optimum ligature and had a much brighter, thin and still pinched sound. Tommy has since switched my setup to the one listed above, which has provided me a more compact, dark and velvety sound I'd say, at least compared to before. I am very much happier with this current setup.
I'm wanting a more fuller (more oomph and core to my sound), with a ring but not too bright. Perhaps a "german" sound would be the way to describe it?
On the way to great embouchure!
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2017-02-03 21:31
I was going to "prescribe" a switch from a more open lay (like your M30) to a closer, more gentle one such as the M13 lyre, and I'm glad that your teacher thought of it first and it seems to be helping. The slightly longer lay on the regular M13 (not the lyre) could go even further to making it easier for you to play without pinching (especially if you want to take in more mouthpiece ), but if the M13 lyre is working, that's fine. The resistance provided by the barrel can also be a factor in how much lip pressure you need to apply to play in the upper register. Generally, the Chadash should be ok in that respect, but you still might want to experiment. Try rotating the barrel to find the "sweet spot" where the upper register speaks most effortlessly (this is an old L. Russianoff suggestion that still works). If you have a chance, try other barrels too, including the Moening, the Buffet Icon, Fobes, and the hard rubber Behns. Any of these might by chance free up your altissimo and give you the confidence to play up there without resorting to more lip and jaw pressure. Also try different cuts of reeds including the Vandoren 21 and 56.
Post Edited (2017-02-03 21:34)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2017-02-03 22:07
icmusicman wrote:
> R13 Bb/R13 GL A
> M13 Lyre Mouthpiece (no refacing or touch up, just straight out
> of the box)
> Rovner Versa Ligature
> Chadash 66mm Barrel
> V12 3.5 Reeds
>
> I have tried a
> thicker mouthpiece cushion, but was very uncomfortable with how
> distance there was between my top teeth and mouthpiece.
That, of course, is one point of the thicker patch - to provide more room inside your mouth. It's a little less direct than that - it pushes the mouthpiece downward slightly farther away from your upper teeth, so it's also pushing your lower teeth/jaw down by that amount, opening your mouth inside slightly.
> KDK: I think what I mean by looser is to not "force" my corners
> to be firm and inward and to not force my chin to be pointed,
> rather achieve both of these things in the most relaxed way
> possible.
From the sound of it, IMO, you've just gone a little too far and given up the lip control that is essential. You may have been - probably were - working too hard with the facial muscles. "Force" is always a bad word. You do need control. Without seeing or hearing you I suspect you've now gone too far in the direction of slackness and are reflexively making up for it with jaw pressure. Your original solution was in the right direction, but you stayed on the train past your station.
> I was just trying too hard and the muscles became more fatigued
> faster.
Yes. The advice I've always heard and given is to use as little pressure *as necessary* from the lips. It isn't possible to play with no pressure. But the pressure needs to come from active lip muscles and be no stronger than needed, not from the jaw muscles, which are much more powerful.
> As far as
> active lips go, once i begin to bite, I feel like my air has no
> place to go but out the corners of my lips. I feel as if I
> can't control them and they no longer seal around the
> mouthpiece.
That's one main reason why biting is so destructive. It closes the aperture between the reed and the tip rail and does indeed leave the air nowhere to go but past your lips and out. It also makes starting a note (articulation) harder because the reed is being held still so forcefully. The solution is to get out of the way of the reed by not pressing up into it with the jaw so the air *does* have somewhere to go - past the reed and into the mouthpiece.
> Perhaps I myself
> am pushing the clarinet up against my teeth a little too much,
> making it feel like I'm clamping down from the top.
I would describe it differently, but yes, that's my suspicion. But the fact that you're pressing the mouthpiece against your upper teeth is a little beside the point. The main problem is that, using your jaw muscles, you're pressing your lower teeth against **the reed** - that the force pushes the mouthpiece upward into your upper teeth is the collateral damage that happens when all that upward force eventually meets a relatively immovable object (upper teeth).
> As far as reeds go, I currently play on 3.5 V12's on an M13
> lyre, the 3's are just too darn soft... But perhaps my biting
> issue is making them feel that way..?
>
Most of the mature players I know who use M13 Lyre use either #3-1/2 or heavily adjusted #4 V.12s (or an equivalent), but most of my students, many of whom who use M13L or M15 play very comfortably on #3s. You might use the #3s as a remedial strength to make sure you're applying whatever controlling pressure you need with your lips. If the reed won't respond, it's probably because you're clenching your jaw, not because the reed is too soft.
> I'm wanting a more fuller (more oomph and core to my sound),
> with a ring but not too bright. Perhaps a "german" sound would
> be the way to describe it?
>
Trying to describe a sound is always an exercise in frustration. The important thing is that, while you may not be able to describe it clearly, you know it when you hear it.
Good luck!
Karl
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Author: JasonOlney
Date: 2017-02-03 22:12
Hey imusicman,
Best of luck in all of this. Fighting excessive biting is very hard and even after regular conditioning, biting can sneak back .
I know you said you have already tried softer reeds but I think that you might want to try it again. I mean really soft. 3.5 v12s are your typical reed, try a 2.5. Focus on the pressure that the corners produce and relax your jaw open as much as possible. The goal is to reduce the jaw pressure and increase the lip strength. Your lips might be weaker than you think because they've relied on the jaw for strength. I recommend having a variety of super soft reeds and starting each day with the softest for just a few minutes. Slowly transition through less hard reeds. Try to avoid playing on any reed that takes too much effort. You might even start the soft reed procedure at the beginning of each practice session to reinforce the reduced jaw effort.
Double lip has proven extraordinarily successful for reducing jaw pressure for many players. Double lip requires the upper lip to roll over the top teeth - the bottom and top lips both cushion the mouthpiece from direct teeth touching. I would do less than a minute of double lip playing at a time and stop when the pain starts.
Any effort you make will take some number of weeks, at minimum, to start feeling natural. Not only that, but you may need to reduce the length of practice sessions and have them more often. Be patient with yourself. I think that's the tallest hurdle in any major change in playing style or technique.
Playing with less jaw pressure is worth it, though. You'll feel freer and more commanding of the clarinet than you knew you could.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2017-02-03 22:33
JasonOlney wrote:
> Double lip has proven extraordinarily successful for reducing
> jaw pressure for many players. Double lip requires the upper
> lip to roll over the top teeth - the bottom and top lips both
> cushion the mouthpiece from direct teeth touching. I would do
> less than a minute of double lip playing at a time and stop
> when the pain starts.
>
I am indebted to having switched (at my single-lip teacher's suggestion decades ago) to double lip specifically to solve a biting problem I had developed. The goal at the time was to play with both lips covering my teeth and then to reproduce the embouchure formation with only my bottom lip over my teeth. In the Bonade tradition (or wherever it came from farther back in history) he taught us to keep the upper lip engaged against the top of the mouthpiece and the upper teeth just as it is engaged when actually covering the upper teeth. Eventually I found that I was more comfortable with double lip and switched completely instead of using it is a model for my single lip embouchure.
I think that using double lip is a valid approach to combat biting (it worked for me), but you need that extra step of making the single lip embouchure mimic the feel of the double lip, or you may well just go back to biting again when you let the upper lip out. And, unfortunately, it *is* possible to begin to bite even with double lip, though the result is much more painful, if you start to drift toward excessively hard reeds.
Karl
Post Edited (2017-02-04 01:06)
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