 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Wookie001
Date: 2017-01-15 03:08
Hi,
I've thought about replacing the cork tenons of my Buffet RC Bb Clarinet with neoprene like on the Tosca model. do you think that is possible? and how much would it cost?
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2017-01-15 06:18
The Toscas I've seen have cork. I wonder if what you have seen on a Tosca is really neoprene. Any material used shouldn't be too spongy, or else the joints get wobbly. No material really has been able to match all of the advantages of cork. It compresses, but not too much. It is easy to glue and it is easy to sand to the proper dimension. And it is a renewable resource.
Steve Ocone
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Author: bassclarinet101 ★2017
Date: 2017-01-15 06:38
Steven,
What about O-rings in place of cork like on Brad Behn's mouthpieces? I have cork on my tenons, but I'm just curious if that would be feasible on every joint of a clarinet.
-Daniel
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Author: pewd
Date: 2017-01-15 07:39
I agree with Steve - you want to replace neoprene with cork, not the other way around.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: ruben
Date: 2017-01-15 14:18
Steve; There does exist one alternative to cork: thread. I agree with you that nothing beats cork because of the qualities you have spoken of. Its drawback, however, is that it has a damping effect on sound waves; slows them down as they go from one body of the clarinet to the other. Bassoonists use thread, as do clarinetists that play period instruments. The trick is to find the right kind of thread. I'm thinking of experimenting with silk thread, as silk is a conductor and I assume that it has vibrational qualities. Let me know what you think.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-01-15 14:52
"There does exist one alternative to cork: thread.
Its drawback, however, is that it has a damping effect on sound waves; slows them down as they go from one body of the clarinet to the other.
The trick is to find the right kind of thread. I'm thinking of experimenting with silk thread, as silk is a conductor and I assume that it has vibrational qualities."
Are you serious?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2017-01-15 14:55)
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Author: ruben
Date: 2017-01-15 17:46
As I said, bassoonists use thread and seem to prefer it. Silk thread was used to fasten the blades of double reeds to the tube. Why does seem so outlandish? It's worth a try?
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2017-01-15 17:55
I think he was referring to the comment about the damping effect of cork. Sound waves don't travel through the body of the instrument, they travel through the bore (I'm oversimplifying this, in reality the sound we hear is generated at the very end of the instrument at the last tone hole that is open). Cork makes no difference to the playing qualities of the instrument.
-Jdbassplayer
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Author: ruben
Date: 2017-01-15 18:05
I'm not so sure that cork doesn't have a damping effect, even though the pressure waves travel through the bore. This is the principle of the LeFreque "sound-bridge" blades: though they are on the body of the clarinet, tests have proven that they keep the sound waves from slowing down so much when travelling from one body of the clarinet to the other. I know many people have pooh-poohed this, but they do make for greater response; the don't have a purely placebo effect. Cork is used on the walls of noisy factories as an acoustic insulator. It must have a damping effect.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-01-15 18:06
I doubt any difference in tone will be noticed no matter what the tenons are lapped with or not lapped at all provided they're well fitting in their respective sockets.
Bassoon tenons are often threaded to add strength to them and make assembly easier than having corked tenons. Bassoon tenons are incredibly thin compared to clarinet tenons as well as being made from much lower density maple (talking German bassoons here). The narrower long joint tenon is notoriously weak - some only having around a 1mm wall thickness between the tenon slot and the bore. This tenon is sometimes tapered to follow the taper of the bore to add more strength and also to make assembly easy without putting any undue stress on the tenon.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2017-01-15 18:12
The thread idea is fascinating.
Cotton thread is used for bassoons tenons. Synthetic thread is a bit too elastic and if stretch during installation can stress the tenon. Probably not a problem for clarinets.
When customers ask me if one thing or another makes a difference I say "Yes. Will you notice it? No." I wonder if the thread idea is belongs in this group.
Steve Ocone
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Author: ruben
Date: 2017-01-15 18:20
Dear Steve,
Let's both give it a try and discuss our respective conclusions! I agree that most listeners can't tell the difference when we fiddle with our equipment, but if it makes a difference to us players-if it makes us feel more comfortable and take more joy in playing-it will indirectly make a difference to our listeners.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Burt
Date: 2017-01-15 18:41
As others have stated here, the sound travels through the bore. If sound traveled through the body of the clarinet (like a chime), the body material would drastically affect the pitch. A metal clarinet would be many notes sharper than a wood clarinet. Any sound coupled into the body is wasted. This coupling is minimized by using a hard material such as grenadilla, ebonite or metal.
Try holding a clarinet tightly while somebody is playing it. Do you feel much vibration? Do you affect the sound? NO to both.
Cork offers an air-tight seal and mechanical stability. It's great for using in the tenons. But lots of other materials will work. In a pinch, I have used paper to replace cork. The sound did not change.
Burt
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Author: Wookie001
Date: 2017-01-15 19:00
sorry, it was the Divine model that has synthetic material instead of cork.
but thanks for your information. I probably won't change anything then.
the only reason was that I wouldn't have to use cork grease anymore..
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2017-01-15 19:04
Ruben,
Can you provide an example of some of these tests? All of the acoustic engineers I've ever talked to have been of the opinion that the Lefreque is a complete scam.
Damping only has an effect after the sound leaves the instrument. You can stick a clarinet mouthpiece on a tube of neoprene rubber (one of the best damping materials available) and it will still sound like a clarinet, and be as loud as a clarinet. I know because I've done this before.
-Jdbassplayer
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-01-15 19:55
Before doing anything to the tenons, make sure they're a good fit to begin with as so many are piss poor and wobble like anything. Especially on high end Buffets where build and finish is also generally below average.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2017-01-15 19:56)
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Author: ruben
Date: 2017-01-15 20:07
I certainly take the point, but make clarinets with identical dimensions: bore, tone holes-out of African blackwood, mopane, boxwood, etc. and you will get a distinctly different tone.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: ruben
Date: 2017-01-15 20:10
David: You've changed your mind then! This is not what you said a couple of years ago, if my memory serves me right. You said they worked on flutes but made no difference to a clarinet. Everybody's got a right to be wrong, as the song says. Maybe I'm the one that's wrong!
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: ruben
Date: 2017-01-15 20:14
PS: I'll try to find the report if I can. It may still be in my inbox somewhere. It was conducted by a Spanish university research center and is in Spanish. -pretty scientific and turgid. The Lefreque company would probably provide you with it.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-01-15 21:32
Cork is easier to work with as far as replacing and repairing. If that matters. Coming from someone that does his own repairs, since the mid 1970's. That includes tuning horns.
Wood does vibrate. The heavier horns such as the Selmer Recital has a darker sound. Lighter horns such as the Yamaha's tend to have a bigger sound, but the bore sizes are remarkably close. If you made a clarinet out of balsa wood the sound and the vibrations of course wold be totally different.
So I have to politely disagree that it's more than just the bore.
I can surely see how cork compared to other materials can change the tonal sound of the horn.
Hardness also effects mouthpieces as we all know. A crystal mouthpiece has a totally different sound compared to rubber and even rubber mouthpieces vary in hardness. The mouthpieces I make are about as hard as you can get without going to glass. This has to do with a lot of things, but mainly the sulfur/sulphur amount. Same spelling. A bit confusing. It's spelled both ways. Then we as players, often put something soft on the mouthpiece to deaden the vibrations, the ligature. It can be the German string ligature to the famous Bonade Reverse Metal, where the screws are on top. The prices can cost a few cents to $400 or more. Mine costs $5.
So we've covered so much here. The answer is YES, cork can surely change the vibrations of your horn.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2017-01-16 08:36)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-01-15 21:52
For tenons you can't beat cork.
What is annoying and again a Buffet thing is the wavy tenon slot - either machine it flat or build it up to make it flat so the cork strip has a nice flat surface to make full contact against instead of only making contact with the peaks of the waves or having to be compressed into the troughs.
Whatever their logic behind these dreadful wavy tenon slots is, it eludes me. Totally impractical and unnecessary. Modern contact adhesives work best when both surfaces are matching and the best matching surfaces are flat and not wavy.
So get your act together Buffet and also reposition your thumbrest bases up the lower joint by around 10mm so people can get the full benefit from them instead of just bunging them on in the same location the fixed ones went.
If you want to honour your heritage, then sort it out. Same goes for the other pioneering makers still in business who rest on their laurels only because they know they can do what they like.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: saxlite
Date: 2017-01-16 03:34
Regarding "sound waves slowing down" due to the cork in tenon joints-the sound waves travel along the the long axis of the clarinet; the material in the joints will have no effect, as several others have stated. Secondly, the speed of sound IN AIR is affected only by the air temperature. Use the cork as recommended by Chris and Co.
Jerry
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-01-16 08:44
Chris P
I totally agree with you. Buffet is living on past generations of success. They have to wake up fast. They will soon be in a bullfight with other companies and get slammed to the ground. It's actually already started. Sadly they've gone to China and other countries to have some of their horns and mouthpieces made.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2017-01-16 09:28
>> For tenons you can't beat cork. <<
You can... it is sometimes recommended to beat the hell out of it before installing
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-01-16 11:23
<laughing!>
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Brad Behn
Date: 2017-01-19 00:10
I make my mouthpieces with O-ring tenons and have received a lot of positive feedback. I have many different sizes so anyone can custom fit to their barrel dimensions, they are easily replaceable by anyone without need of a repair technician, and they allow the mouthpiece to slip on and off with much less effort, while maintaining a good secure seal. Furthermore, in my opinion they create a more efficient transfer of energy whereas cork dampens things. I am convinced O-rings function better in EVERY way.
Lubrication of the tenon should be done differently however. Instead of lubing the male tenon as one would do on cork, with O-rings one should lubricate the female socket. Cork grease works fine. I have some dedicated O-ring lubrication which lasts months, and creates such a slick and secure fit that I can easily slip my mouthpiece in and out of the barrel socket by gripping with my thumb and pinky fingers apposed.
Cork has issues:
1. In time with use, cork will compress as the cellular structure can't maintain its original integrity. This compression creates a wiggle fit which can also leak air. Dangerous squeaks and instability can arise.
2. I have seen many mouthpiece tenons compromised when a repair technician sands the cork down and ends up beveling the edges of the mouthpiece tenon in the process. Indeed any quality repair technician would be conscientious of this possibility, but it happens all too often. A beveled tenon will create a wobbly fit, and that wobble will lead to air leaking and or squeaks.
3. To replace a tenon, a repair technician typically charges from $15 on up. I have seen a repair technician in NYC charge $45 for a mouthpiece tenon cork. O-rings just pop on and off - anyone can do it for free. It is easy.
4. When cork is new it requires frequent lubrication, and when it is well used lubrication creates a wobbly fit. It is a moving target.
I haven't experimented with O-rings on clarinets so I can't speak with certainty there, however I welcome any interesting ideas to find something better than cork. I am confident that O-rings are a wonderful solution when properly implemented, fitted, and lubricated where mouthpieces are concerned. And I for one feel that they offer real potential in the music industry.
And with respect to other synthetic options. Why not! If they can be proven to work better than cork, then I say it is an advancement.
Brad Behn
http://www.clarinetmouthpiece.com
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Author: ruben
Date: 2017-01-19 18:24
Brad: You mentioned that cork has a damping effect: slows down the transfer of energy. This is exactly what I stated-though admittedly, I can't prove it-and was contradicted by several readers of this post. Their argument is that it is only what happens in the bore that matters. I would tend to agree with you- and with myself, ha, ha! I think you've hit open the replacement for cork and that it will improve the acoustic properties of the instrument if it is used on all of the clarinet's tenons. I will order one of your mouthpieces to get a closer look at what you do-and to have then pleasure of playing one of your mouthpieces, needless to say.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: bassclarinet101 ★2017
Date: 2017-01-20 01:19
Dear Brad,
What do you think would be necessary in order to isolate the (lack of) effects of cork vs O-rings on the body of the clarinet? You know me and my love of experimentation with the development of the instrument. If I could experiment without sacrificing my Tosca, I'd be more than happy to put her to the test in terms of any tangible benefit.
If the O-ring approach can even be proven equal on the body, then the practicality of it would justify the switch in terms of clarinet development.
Would the scientific approach to it be something like this?
Question: Do O-Rings or Cork provide a better projection of sound?
Hypothesis: O-Rings project sound better than cork tenons, resulting in higher dynamic levels over the same distance.
Materials: One clarinet, outfitted with fresh cork
O-rings for each tenon
8 highly directional microphones, each pointed at the center of the room.
Duct tape
One control room, with a low noise floor
One synthetic reed (to avoid warping)
Procedure: At the center of the control room, mark, with the Duct Tape, a spot on the ground.
At the eight compass points, and equidistant from each other and the duct tape mark, set up each microphone, pointed so that it is facing towards the duct tape.
With the clarinet warmed up, record a chromatic scale of the complete first two registers of the clarinet at its loudest dynamic level, slowly. Repeat this recording a number of times, until a satisfactory number of samples are reached.
Record the maximum dynamic level, in dB, from each note, as recorded on each microphone, for each test.
Using the same clarinet, replace the cork tenons with the O-rings.
With the clarinet warmed up, record a chromatic scale of the complete first two registers of the clarinet at its loudest dynamic level, slowly. Repeat this recording a number of times, collecting an identical number of samples to the cork, and recording the same data points.
Table:
Test Number/Material/Mic 1/Mic 2/Mic 3/Mic 4/Mic 5/Mic 6/Mic 7/Mic 8 (dB)
Conclusions: Based on Data; Pragmatic Considerations, Shortcomings (such as the inherent faults of human player, and how they are offset by quantity of sample data)
-Daniel
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Author: Brad Behn
Date: 2017-01-20 02:08
Hi Daniel and Ruben,
Yes O-rings allow the energy to transfer from the mouthpiece to the barrel with more efficiency. Note that when the reed is vibrating, it causes the mouthpiece to sympathetically vibrate. And the O-rings transfer that vibrancy through the instrument better than the dampening effect of cork.
Many of my mouthpiece clients report that they can feel the instrument vibrate in their fingertips. While I don't think the O-rings are the singular reason for this, I am certain that the O-rings help. Indeed how the mouthpiece resonates due to the sum of all of the parts (including design, facing, and material) are influential in the vibrations, the tactile experience of playing, and the efficiency of sound propagation. In other words, how the instrument resonates influences your playing experience.
O-rings also offer advantages which have nothing to do with the playing experience, but have a lot to do with the user's experience. That is to say that O-rings are more practical, they offer solutions to the many issues of cork.
Dan, I love your zeal to explore new things, find solutions in a scientific manner. I personally wouldn't alter a nice Tosca clarinet to build O-rings into the tenons, as I don't think the merits are worth defacing what Buffet has constructed. Perhaps you should try it with an old pawn shop special first. And yes, please report back to the group with your findings. BTW did you ever do the alternate side G# key location?
Brad
Brad Behn
http://www.clarinetmouthpiece.com
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Author: bassclarinet101 ★2017
Date: 2017-01-20 03:33
Dear Brad,
I did do the alternate G-sharp location, and came up with two conclusions: One, it does not only nicely separate the notes (resulting in the need for different placements of both the G-sharp and A tone holes in the lattice, otherwise the pitch of the A is altered by their independence from each other). Two, and this was all done informally, but there was less variation in the overall tuning chart of the instrument with the G-sharp moved to fall along the same axis as the other keys. This was more effective at smaller tone hole sizes, and eventually the junker cracked before the work could be completed in a formal sense.
It also tied in to a curiosity that Walter Grabner had spiked in me about measuring the baffle. It is certainly possible, but impractical. Because of the different lattice structure from clarinet model to clarinet model, measuring the baffle of a clarinet mouthpiece and how it directs the air is only useful relative to a specific lattice structure, with an adjustment for reflectivity of the instrument's material.
This is best illustrated (in theory) by a mouthpiece directly attached to a three hole pipe on the three different axes. The pipe can be produced of different materials, showing the relative effect of material on the output (based on energy lost).
It's then emphasized by producing or rotating the pipe around the instrument to show how the air's movement affects the output.
In order to reproduce results, the pipe can be crenelated for exact positioning with the mouthpiece.
Unfortunately I'm out of junkers, so I'll have to wait until something comes up at the pawn shop that I can get fixed up before I run any more curiosities of my own.
I do also have an idea for a better clarinet "material" that is both more resistant to warping and decay, but can inhibit some of the reflectivity that comes from using the hard plastics. It stems from the 3D printing conversation we had, but I want to get things a little more concretely fleshed out before I spring the idea, because it's something I'd like to see put into production on instruments. I'd love to talk with you about it more some time, if you'd like to give me a call? I don't have any more surgeries for a month, so I have more time to do those kind of discussions right now.
-Daniel
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Author: bassclarinet101 ★2017
Date: 2017-01-20 03:42
I should note that any conclusions about the overall effect of something on the tone of a clarinet is not a judgment statement as to whether that effect is desirable or undesirable.
It is also worth noting that the idea that increased distance between the tone holes of the lattice come with increased stability should be credited to Arthur Benade and not to myself. Credit belongs with the master, and I would note that resources I consulted when teaching myself more about the acoustics of the clarinet include his Fundamentals of Musical Acoustics, the book Clarinet Acoustics by O. Lee Gibson (recommended to me by Walter Grabner), and Acoustical Aspects of Woodwind Instruments, Revised Edition by C.J. Nederveen.
-Daniel
Post Edited (2017-01-20 08:20)
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Author: ruben
Date: 2017-01-20 16:32
Dear Brad,
If it's good for the goose, it's good for the gander. We will try putting o-rings on all the tenons of an old clarinet and see what it does to it. I have a hunch it will make for better projection, make register breaks smoother, etc.. The first step is to order a mouthpiece from you!
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: bassclarinet101 ★2017
Date: 2017-01-20 16:41
When you put the O-rings on the old clarinet, would you be willing to record the answers to some questions for me?
In fact, if you have a plastic clarinet that could be the guinea pig, I'd love to know how the O-rings hold relative to cork in different temperatures, how easy they are to adjust in different temperatures at the middle joint, relative projection, any effect on tuning, additional comments, etc.
You're awesome for volunteering to experiment!
-Daniel
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2017-01-20 17:24
How many O-rings per tenon?
MaxTon uses 3 but why not 2?
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Author: bassclarinet101 ★2017
Date: 2017-01-20 17:55
Theory: The more individual rings within the same space, the easier it is to maintain the seal while making fine adjustments. Because the O rings have troughs unlike cork, if the troughs are too wide, fine adjustment would result in the same unevenness that overly compressed cork creates.
-Daniel
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Author: Brad Behn
Date: 2017-01-20 21:34
To create a seal all that is necessary is 1 O-ring, however to create a wobble free fit, 2 are better. In the concept of "some is good, and more is better" I make my clarinet mouthpieces with 3 O-rings, Eb clarinet mouthpieces with 4 O-rings, and Bass Clarinet mouthpieces with 4 O-rings...and Eb tone hole bell extensions with 4 O-rings as well.
We only need 2 on mouthpieces but I like the redundancy as a safety.
Also with the joints of a clarinet, I would recommend more O-rings in principal so as to provide more ability to pull out, while maintaining a secure and wobble free fit.
Brad
Brad Behn
http://www.clarinetmouthpiece.com
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