 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: JonTheReeds
Date: 2016-12-29 16:11
I've been playing clarinet for 6 years now. I have always had a problem with tonguing quickly. Periodically I have concentrated on tonguing practice but have never made any progress beyond 4 notes to a beat, 96 beats to a minute, which was pretty much my speed when I first picked up the clarinet
In October I decided to really focus on this aspect of my technique as it is holding me back in so many ways and I'm starting to look to a Diploma. I've been practising tonguing every practice since then, trying different approaches, different amounts of mouthpiece, trying to relax the tongue or tense it up, dotted rhythms etc.
Almost 3 months later I'm still at 4 notes a beat, 96 beats a minute! I don't know what to do - whether that's it, 96 beats a minute is as fast as it'll get; or if I just need to keep at it and one day I'll have a breakthrough; or if I need another approach; or if I should just say @#*! it and learn double tonguing
I think that the main frustration is that there's been no improvement in almost 3 months
Any help to save my sanity (and relations with neighbours!) would be gratefully appreciated
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The older I get, the better I was
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2016-12-29 17:22
Your problem is 99% sure to be caused by making unnecessary movements.
First, set your metronome to 60 and tongue 2 notes to the beat, watching yourself in a mirror. If you have any visible movement in your jaw or Adam's apple, you need to eliminate them. The only thing that moves should be the tip of your tongue.
Second, put the bell on your right knee, finger low-register C and rest your right hand on your belly just under your ribs. Again, tongue 2 per beat at 60. You'll probable feel yourself making a puff of air on each note. If so, you're using the large, slow breathing muscles on each note. Practice long tones, keeping a steady air-stream and just flicking the tip of your tongue past the reed for each note.
Finally, remember that the tongue doesn't start the tone. It stops the tone and then releases the reed so it can start vibrating again.
Ken Shaw
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2016-12-29 18:43
David Pino discusses his own issues with tonguing quickly in his book, The Clarinet and Clarinet Playing. He spent years working on the problem, and didn't get anywhere. Finally, he started using a type of on-the-reed multiple tonguing, and it worked for him.
http://www.woodwind.org/clarinet/Study/DoubleTonguing.html
Although this is slightly out of the mainstream, it might also be worth trying Roger McKinney's "n" or "nu" tonguing syllable.
http://www.tcnj.edu/~mckinney/tonguing.htm
Some people have great success moving the tongue from side to side when tonguing quickly. I do it from time to time, and notice that when I do it with the "n", I can really tongue quickly.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-12-29 20:12
What has your teacher suggested, and what resulted when you tried it?
Sluggish tonguing often means too much effort is being put into it. Basic, IMO, is Ken's advice about articulating the reed while maintaining a steady air stream. Using the abdominal muscles to make separate puffs of air for each note will limit speed.
Moving your tongue too far from the reed takes extra time for it to get back - the closer you stay to the reed, the less time it takes to return. The limit on this is that if to keep your tongue motion short you also tense it, you'll wind up with offsetting results. The tongue needs to be non-rigid, but under control.
Trying to make a firm "attack," which generally means pressing your tongue *into* the reed before releasing it, slows things down. This can come from trying to use a "t" approach (ta, tee, to, tu). At speed the release of the reed needs to be done quickly and without extra pressure being applied first.
These are the three biggest culprits I've found in my own and my students' problems with articulation. I suspect you can get more speed than you are managing. But at the end of the discussion needs to come a recognition than some players have less natural dexterity with their tongues than others. Multiple tonguing has been developed by some players to compensate for their lack of speed with single strokes. But first, keep trying to increase your single-tongue speed.
Karl
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Author: JasonOlney
Date: 2016-12-29 22:12
I'm with everyone else- the best way to speed up your tonguing is to slow down and closely evaluate what you're doing.
Also start to notice how the register makes tonguing easier or harder. The low register is easy to articulate but the higher you go, the back of your tongue naturally raises and that tends to pull the tip of the tongue away from the reed. Many people who with poor voicing or tongue position have a hell of a time in the upper register. Keep your tongue poised in a forward position, with the top of the tip of the tongue just behind the bottom of the tip of the reed.
Be patient and vigilant. And relaxed. Best of luck!
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Author: Wes
Date: 2016-12-30 00:16
Good advice from Ken Shaw! When your single tonguing has reached it's top speed, consider learning to double tongue. Mr. Shaw also has excellent advice on the tongue action to use for fast double tonguing, not covered by other experts. Good luck!
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2016-12-30 00:52
Tonguing is the most difficult aspect of playing clarinet to teach and self analize. Mostly because the teacher can't see what the student is doing and the player can't always tell themselves. I've had several instances where it took multiple lessons to get a student to tell me what part of the tongue is hitting what part of the reed. How high or low is the front or the back of the tongue, etc. One time it took a year and a half until a student actually told me that information after working on it with him or nearly three semester.
My advise is to read my website page on tongueing to get some ideas. It's very possible your tongue is to long, to short, to fat or thick. Any of those features will prevent you from tonguing fast until you can find a way to self analyze. You're tongue may be to high or to low in the back or front of your tongue.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: seanosborn
Date: 2016-12-30 02:20
Perhaps my video will help.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T39lYj4Hzjg&list=PL6B2EQQ4o53Mk5E9byEIL-SC75fVLpzC2&index=8
Best wishes,
Sean
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Author: JonTheReeds
Date: 2016-12-30 17:53
Thank you for all this advice, I am working my way through
@Ken: I've checked my embouchure/throat in the mirror and it doesn't seem to move. My support seems solid as well as my belly doesn't seem to move either; if anything it very slowly moves out as I breathe out (is that possible?)
@clarinetguy: Thanks for the links. McKinney's advice on tonguing was interesting. I tried out the idea of using "Nu" for tonguing instead of "Tut". The sound seemed to my hears to be a bit smoother and rounder, fuller even, although it didn't help my tonguing speed last night. I will experiment further, as it's not going to be something that improves overnight, but I'm not sure this is a technique to increase speed, rather a technique to broaden one's tone palette
@Karl: My teacher has said from the very beginning that tonguing releases the reed to vibrate and I can't remember her ever using the word "attack" - she prefers "articulation". When I first started, I was encouraged to imagine that tonguing was like a castle's crenallations so, whilst keeping the air flow supported, I played a note for a beat, then rested the tip of my tongue on the tip of the reed for a beat and repeated, the shape of the crenallation imitating the on-off aspect of tonguing. More recently I've been advised to tongue different patterns, dotted rhythms, reduce the force I use, build the metronome up slowly etc.
@Jason: I don't have a problem now with voicing in the upper registers (although C and B but I'll look into whether the register has an effect on tonguing
@Ed: It's always helpful to know when something is difficult, in this case teaching or self-analysing tonguing. I must admit that I find it difficult to pin point exactly what my tongue is doing - it just happens in my mouth somehow! I will have a look at your website, thank you, there is a lot to look through
@Sean: Good advice to check against my current technique. Fascinating to see the video of the inside of your mouth!
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The older I get, the better I was
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2016-12-30 19:09
Here's another exercise. Play chalumeau C, mezzo forte and flick the tip of your tongue up past the reed tip, BUT MISS. Gradually move the tip of your tongue forward until the area just past the tip touches the reed. Move in and out to find the lightest possible touch.
Work on this until you can get, say, 8 perfect touches, all on C. Then finger a 5-note scale up and down, C-D-E-F-G-F-E-D-C. When that's comfortable, do an octave up and down.
Your goal is to make the lightest possible articulation, smoothly and effortlessly. When you get that learned, you can vary the tongue stroke for staccato, marcato, etc., always playing "on the breath" and using your tongue only to interrupt the tone and then let it start again.
Ken Shaw
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Author: ruben
Date: 2016-12-30 22:14
I feel that quality is more important than quantity. Tongue artistically and with a variety of détachés and speed will come of its own accord. I've had teachers having had good playing careers that didn't have extraordinary tonguing speed. In fact, they had less than me. On the other hand, they had more expressive variety than I did, and that is what really matters.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: JasonOlney
Date: 2016-12-30 22:43
Have you ever tried to "sensitize" your tongue? Just like your pinky toe or the back of your arms, our experience of sensations becomes numbed. If you scratch those areas, suddenly you can feel them quite clearly. Try scratching the surface of the tongue with your (clean) fingernails or rub the tongue against your teeth so you have a sort of tingling map of the topography of your tongue while you articulate. It might help you know more about what's going on in there.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2016-12-31 00:08
Jason: What a great and imaginative suggestion! I'll certainly use it in my teaching. Thank you.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: ll lebret
Date: 2016-12-31 00:31
If you are typically using the syllable "tut" then two t sounds will be adjacent when repeating articulated notes (tut tut). Try just starting each note with t - tu tu tu. I also personally find it rather harsh to always use the tongue to terminate a note. I think it is better as a special effect, not the default termination.
Recently I was shown a relaxation exercise for the tongue that I find helpful. Just articulate "la la la" quickly and repeatedly to help release tension from the tongue before starting tonguing exercises or whenever you don't like the quality of your articulation. i think it helps both with relaxation and pointing the tongue so that the contact area of the tongue to the reed is minimized. I hope these tips are helpful.
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Author: Michael S.
Date: 2016-12-31 11:54
JonTheReeds: I also have a very slow tongue. And it is also slow without clarinet. Practising does not help much (about 4-8 bpm at sixteenths). I read many years ago that it is possibly a kind of paralysis.
How fast is your tongue without clarinet? And are you capable of playing fast trills with ease (my trills are not very fast either)? Perhaps you have a similar problem. If yes, I suggest practising double tongue...
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Author: JonTheReeds
Date: 2017-01-10 19:22
Thanks for all the help an advice. I have narrowed things down a bit by playing dotted rhythms; a demiquaver followed by a dotted semiquaver. At 60bpm this is feasible but as I move towards 66bpm I find it difficult to hit the next beat cleanly even though there is a gap between the last dotted semiquaver and the semiquaver on the beat. Does this suggest that, when the speed picks up, my tongue is getting confused?
Just wondering if anyone else has had this problem and, is so, if and how they overcame it?
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The older I get, the better I was
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2017-01-10 19:55
One more question. Do you tuck the tip of your tongue down behind your lower teeth? This is known as anchor tonguing and requires that you move your entire tongue back and forth to articulate each note. Anchor tonguing is inherently slower than moving just the tip of your tongue.
Lay your tongue along the bottom of your mouth with the back high. Then just flip the tip up past the reed tip as lightly as possible, with the smallest possible movement.
Switching from anchor tonguing to tip-to-tip tonguing is not easy, but it will greatly increase your speed as well as giving you a greater variety of articulation.
Ken Shaw
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Author: JonTheReeds
Date: 2017-01-10 21:15
Hi Ken, I'm not anchor tonguing and definitely doing tip to tip. But your post implies that the tongue is going up and down, whereas my tongue travels horizontally, away from the reed towards the back of the throat, then forwards towards the reed
Could this be where I'm going wrong?
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The older I get, the better I was
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2017-01-10 23:01
Jon -
Back and forth tongue movement is definitely a problem. Play low C, mezzo forte, and practice flicking the tip of your tongue up past the tip of the reed. Start by just barely missing the tip and gradually move your tongue forward until the tip just barely grazes the reed.
Your tongue should stay still, with only the tip moving. When you can play C 5 times in a row, go to an ascending and descending scale, C-D-E-F-G-F-E-D-C and then to an octave.
Ken Shaw
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Author: donald
Date: 2017-01-12 16:52
Hi, have you experimented with the angle you are holding the clarinet? I am a professional clarinet player, but have always been aware I have a slow tongue. Here are a couple of thoughts that helped me get by (and continue improving, in my 47th year!!!!!!!)
- The airstream has a lot to do with it. There was a passage I was having trouble with some years ago and David Blumberg made a comment on this BB, on an unrelated topic, that made me aware that the problem was unfocussed air. "Concentrating" my air forward in the mouth and keeping the airspeed fast solved that particular problem (and others since). In that instance I was dropping my airspeed for a reason relating to the acoustics of the instrument, but was unaware I was doing this until DBs comment on a related thread made me think about it....
- Have you experimented with the angle that the mouthpiece is entering your mouth? Once the tongue is in your mouth it is like a bunched fist, not the long tongue we see in the mirror. There will be a natural "centre" in your mouth where it can sit with the least tension. The closer the clarinet is held to your body, the closer the tip of the reed is to your front teeth. As the angle of the clarinet gets closer to a right angle (which depends on how high you hold the clarinet, but ALSO the angle you hold your head) the further into your mouth the tip of the mouthpiece/reed is....
I found that I was holding the clarinet at a good angle, but dipping my head so the tongue was having to pull back toward my throat in order to contact the tip of the reed.... and THIS was causing tension that slowed me down.
By keeping my head up and the clarinet down I found that as the tip of the mp/reed was closer to my top teeth- I could then contact the reed in a more relaxed position ("further forward" in my mouth) and this did wonders for speed an evenness.
- Of course the tonguing technique for clarinet and recorder are different... but I tried practising tonguing single notes on the recorder to see if it would help. It certainly helped keep my "tongue-strokes" even, plus I found that practising this helped me find a "low tension position" for my tongue. Of course transfering back to the clarinet required change, but I found I had a "muscle memory" of my tongue evenness and position that was very helpful in improving clarinet tonguing.
Just some ideas. I actually spent some time single tonguing to a metronome while driving between teaching gigs, and this was quite helpful until my wife found out and made me promise not to continue with this for safety reasons (I considered it a good use of time- on some days I spend up to an 2 hours driving, why not use that time!). A colleague also saw me doing this while driving to a gig (Verdi requiem) and threatened to post it on facebook... eeek.
dn
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