 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: harim0suprem0
Date: 2017-01-10 01:03
Hi,
Just wondering if anyone knows the difference between German and French clarinet mouthpiece facings?
(not the internal dimensions or blanks, or the table! I literally mean just the facing curves)
I understand that typically German facings are long and really closed but so are some
French facings too (for example, Vandoren M13, Brad Behn mouthpieces, Gigliotti mouthpieces, etc...)
So does that mean that the shape of the German facing curve is different to the French?
On this website: https://vsl.co.at/en/Clarinet_in_Bb/Two_Forms
they state that the facing curves on German mouthpieces are slightly concave which is really interesting as French facings are convex...
Would anyone who owns both types of mouthpieces be able to confirm this?
Are German mouthpiece facings shaped slightly concave?
Cheers,
Harim Oh
Post Edited (2017-01-10 01:56)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-01-10 01:43
The Vandoren German mouthpieces have a flat table whereas some German ones have a concave table.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2017-01-10 01:55
Here's a list from the Viotto website where they give the length in mm and the opening in 1/100ths of a mm of various mouthpieces. It's only a snapshot of one maker, but it gives you a general idea.
German model mouthpieces:
BF - 20 / 98
N1 - 23 / 100
N1+2 - 23 / 102
K-6 - Clarinet in Eflat - 21 / 92
WM - Basset horn - 24 / 115
VL5 - Bass clarinet - 24 / 127
French model mouthpieces:
TH - 16,5 / 108
B3 - 18,5 / 116
B3+ - 18,5 / 118
B5L - 18 / 125
RH - Clarinet in Eflat - 17 / 105
RHB - Basset horn - 26 / 130
VD3 - Bass clarinet - 24 / 201
Pitch: Mouthpieces available at A=442
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Author: harim0suprem0
Date: 2017-01-10 02:01
Hey guys,
Thanks for your replies. However I am actually asking about the shape of the facing curve of German mouthpieces. Not the table, facing length or tip opening..
Cheers,
Harim
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-01-10 02:11
When they mean the facing being concave, they mean the table where the heel of the reed seats onto and not the facing curve (lay).
You can't have a concave lay as that just won't work as the reed won't conform to it - the lay has to be convex in every case as the reed will naturally take that shape as it's set in motion.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: harim0suprem0
Date: 2017-01-10 02:27
Hi Chris,
You are right, I was not reading the article properly....
It's my understanding too that a concave facing curve wouldn't work,
So I was quite confused when I read it.
Thanks for pointing that out!
Cheers,
Harim
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2017-01-10 03:30
Hans Colbers in the Netherlands has a chart that shows preferences in German mouthpiece facings continue to feature close, long lays, but you can see from his "A series" pieces that more open facings are becoming popular as well--and for players wanting to use French-cut reeds, French facings are available on German style mouthpieces. With the development of some new moisture-resistant wooden blanks from Leitner and Kraus, there is also a renewed interest in wooden mouthpieces.
https://www.hanscolbers.com/german-mouthpiece.php?LN=0.
Post Edited (2017-01-14 00:34)
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2017-01-10 03:40
If you want to know the shape of the curves (as opposed to "long and closed" which refers to length and opening), I don't think any maker has publicized the positions of the shims used for measuring the curve. Be fun to know, but good luck getting it.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2017-01-11 02:19
I believe an important aspect between French and German clarinet mouthpieces is missing. And, that aspect is the size of the window.
Succinctly addressed, the German "window" is narrower at the tip end as well as at the base and, at times can be much longer in length (see attached photo of German Baroque mouthpiece.
http://connection.ebscohost.com/c/articles/59664151/claranalysis-comparison-reed-dimensions-german-french-mouthpiece-types-soprano-clarinet
So, besides the difference in facing lengths, IMO, the window specs need to be taken into consideration.
Also, in the above article, because of the "window" size difference, the typical German reed is thinner to "compensate or to more closely match the characteristics of the different sized window". (My interpretation.)
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Author: Brad Behn
Date: 2017-01-13 00:09
German mouthpieces (Austrian too) were typically made with narrower windows and this adds resistance, tonal hold, stability, and consistency of tone. That narrower window was balanced with a much freer facing which was long and close. The throat of traditional German and Austrian mouthpieces was A-Framed with a rather strong tilt (there is a Zinner patent illustrating an 8 degree tilt if memory serves), and their baffles weren't too deep.
Austrian bores could be larger than German, whereas German could be slightly larger than French - but in many modern cases the same.
Things are changing in Germany with many new and different approaches. Some Germans are using French mouthpieces and metal ligatures, and others are using Legere German reeds on their German mouthpieces, and others are using traditional setups.
Ultimately it is the sum of all the parts which which is important. The facing is just one piece of the puzzle.
Brad
Brad Behn
http://www.clarinetmouthpiece.com
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2017-01-16 02:25
Attachment: german.pdf (14k)
Attachment: germanx4.jpg (665k)
I have a few numbers that may help the original poster. The German mouthpieces I have access to are a Uebel from 1953 and a modern Vandoren M30D. I measured their lays, and included a non-German M30L for comparison. The results are shown on the attached plot. A few select numbers are as follows:
mm from tip opening in mm
Uebel M30D M30L
0 0.99 1.16 1.17
5 0.63 0.74 0.70
10 0.36 0.39 0.35
15 0.16 0.15 0.12
20 0.04 0.04 0.03
So the M30's both have the same tip opening, but the German version is longer. Beyond 12mm from the tip, the curves for the M30D and the Uebel are basically identical. But the Uebel has a much smaller tip opening. Combined with the long lay, the thing tends to close up altogether when I first put it in the mouth: it needs either a very different embouchure or a much stiffer reed.
This matches what I'd gathered anecdotally: that German lays traditionally tended to be long and close, but that modern trends were to use a larger tip opening.
I also agree with the statements about size of window. The attached picture shows (L to R) B40, M30L, M30D, Uebel. The B40 window is longer and wider at the base than the M30s. The Uebel is the same length as M30, but narrower still.
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