 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: tkillian
Date: 2016-12-30 21:51
Is it possible to play great with a traditionaly "incorrect" embouchure? My student sounds great, plays in tune. Has been 1st chair, 1st clarinet in the last two All-County Bands (grade 6 and 7). She is now an 8th grader. In evaluationS she always gets full credit for tone..HOWEVER, her chin is not flat, it bunches up and the extreme corners of her bottom lip fold over, i.e. are not stretched flat against bottom teeth. (I'm being general here) I've tried everything. ...I take photos and show her her embouchure. I take my thumbs and try to pull in place. We do the long tone excersise By Proffessor Rick Faria from Ithaca College uses. I show her youtube videos. It's just so hard to change.
Post Edited (2016-12-30 21:53)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-12-30 22:09
We all have physical idiosyncrasies that don't conform to a "normal" standard. Is there something about her playing (the aural result, not how it looks) that you think needs to be addressed?
If there's a problem that you and she can hear that keeps her from playing the best she can play, it's possible that trying to fix the flat chin may be worthwhile. More to the point, getting her to agree or accept that there's an unwanted consequence to her bunched lip may be the only way you can get her to try to change. She has to buy in, or she won't see the point of the effort. That you've "tried everything" without success seems to suggest that she hasn't bought in.
Regardless of her All-county band placements and her "evaluations" (are these done at school or by some other means?) do you give her "full credit" for her tone? Those accolades are comparative - the standard is only her peer clarinetists.
FWIW, I've never found a pointed or flat chin to be an important requisite for a clean tone or response. A "bunched" lip may not have much if any effect if the "bunched" part isn't in contact with the reed. I always try to react to what a student sounds like.
She has apparently already formed her embouchure habits firmly enough to resist your attempts at change. It may work out to be more effective if you wait to press her about it until there's something she can't do because of her embouchure.
Karl
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Author: tkillian
Date: 2016-12-31 01:20
Karl, great points. Yeah the bunched lip is not in contact with reed. Never thought of that. Her chin is not touching the reed, it's a pretty open sound....except when she has taken time off or has a reed I need to work on. I have her using the vandoren V12 #3 and/or Rico Reserve Classic #3...some sound great out of the box, some need a tiny bit of work. She only has a yamaha advantage which is "okay". When she plays my E13 there is a huge difference. I'm giving her a B40 mp to try tomorrow.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2016-12-31 02:22
I'm actually more concerned with her upper lip. How does that look? How does she handle the notes above high C?
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: tkillian
Date: 2016-12-31 18:54
Well, I guess it could worse? I wish her chin were flatter? 4 years of trying.
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2016-12-31 21:15
It appears that she has a small chin, not the type of chin you always see in those "correct" embouchure pictures. Based on what I'm seeing, I'm not sure if it will ever be easy for her to form the classic clarinet embouchure.
I knew someone who never was able to get her embouchure exactly "right," but she was quite successful in high school. If you'd listen to her play without looking, you'd swear that everything was perfect.
I think you're doing the right thing by experimenting with different mouthpieces. I have a feeling that after trying several mouthpiece/reed combinations, you'll be able to find something that works very well for her. It sounds as if your student is really trying, and I think I'd discontinue the embouchure discussions for a while.
It's also worth remembering that Stanley Drucker had quite a career with his unusual embouchure.
Here's a good discussion of the same topic from 2005:
http://test.woodwind.org/oboe/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=180200&t=179876
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Author: tkillian
Date: 2016-12-31 21:46
Thanks. She sounded great today. I gave her a B40 and wow, big difference from stock yamaha mouthpiece.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2016-12-31 21:50
Too much lower lip inserted (which she has) will more often constrict the sound. Although it will be a bit difficult, experiment with a different mouthpiece lower lip configuration and let her see in the mirror what it would look like.
I don't like the 'smile' analogy because that usually leads to too much pinching and pressure on the reed.
Work at first with just the mouthpiece and barrel so there is less air resistance when trying to re-form her embouchure.
...GBK
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Author: tkillian
Date: 2016-12-31 22:40
Thanks. Her embouchure is improving. .this was from the summer.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2017-01-01 23:03
Is it possible to play clarinet at a very high professional level for a lifetime and still not use a pointed-chin embouchure?
In Ann Parry's photo studio file, type "Stanley Drucker," in the search box and photos 1 and 9 on the page show a pretty good shot of Drucker's somewhat bunched chin embouchure, which did not prevent him from holding first chair in the NY Phil. for over 50 years or from recording a dynamic performance of the Nielsen Cl. Concerto.
https://ann-parry.photoshelter.com.
So I guess the answer is not to worry overmuch about the shape of the chin.
It's good that the Vandoren B40 was an improvement over the stock mouthpiece, but sometimes young players still developing their embouchure might do even better with a closer, more easily controlled facing (that will probably require slightly harder reeds) such as Vandoren M13 and Vandoren M13 lyre (used by quite a few professionals). It's worth a try.
Post Edited (2017-01-01 23:05)
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Author: SarahC
Date: 2017-01-02 02:40
I know someone near me who is a regular performer whose embouchure has an extremely bunched chin. He doesn't get a classical tone.. but that isn't his field. He can get the super altissimo brilliantly.
If it aint broke don't fix it ... She may progress to a level where the effect of her embouchure is hindering her and then want to make a change to achieve something ... because SHE wants to make the change... like multi phonics or something. I find with students, that sometimes if they are sounding great and progressing well, focussing on 'non-ideal' technique for too long can actually put them off playing. Balancing progress with what I call drop in the bucket technique. Every day, put a drop in the embouchure bucket. One day it will overflow. But focus on keeping momentum at all time. fixing an embouchure is never worth losing momentum over. I almost quit clarinet because of this actually... I no longer wanted to practise.. and i am a 3 hours a day practiser in general. (Although not all 3 hours on one instrument.. currently clarinet and oboe share that time)
I think I have altered my technique a few times on some of my instruments. I think of piano in particular. As you find flaws in current technique, you experiment with others until you get the result you desire at the moment! I have probably changed my technique 3 times. And many of the books I read the author talks about why he changed his technique etc.
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Author: Phurster
Date: 2017-01-04 07:47
To me it looks like she has a bit of an under bite.
Her physiology my prevent her from ever getting what standard thinking suggests is the perfect embouchure.
As GBK suggests the amount of bottom lip being used does seem to be a bit excessive.
All that being said, i see and hear many players who don't have conventional embouchures playing with great sounds.
Perhaps the idea of a rigid, one size is right, embouchure is a bit of a red herring. At the highest level the embouchure that achieves the right music effect at that instant is perhaps the 'correct' one.
Mind you with young students i think there is some benefit in going for the standard approach.
Chris.
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